[rcoreyus]

The ladder theory has two problems:
1. It assumes that you can compare two people for desirability. It doesn't take into account that desirability very complex, not simple a combination of a bunch of physical parameters and wealth.

2. It assumes that everyone is looking for the same thing. That there is a most desirable man or most desirable woman out there. This is in marked contrast to the large variation in human interests.

I think it is absolute poison to relationships. Since you are not the most desirable man in the world, and never will be, you will always feel like you must be "settling" for the women you date. There will always be this sense that if you can somehow improve yourself that you will then get a "better" partner. If you partner moves down the ladder (as they age), if you are still attractive you will turn them in for an improved model.

Meanwhile there are lots of happy couples out there who would not trade their partners for anyone on earth. Obelisk will assume that this is being PC and that I'd happily trade my wife for a more attractive one - no way I can convince him .

[Stillness]

Thank you for proving the ladder theory for me.

The first I remember hearing of it was when you first brought it up. Now I can't remember what it is exactly that I found objectionable. I do remember thinking it wasn't all wrong, just that it ignored too much to be taken seriously as a key to understanding attraction.

I think we can safely say that a guy like Jack Black is average. He's not bad looking, but his weight brings him to average level. Danny DeVito even in his young days wasn't much of a looker either. Can you deny this?

Both of these guys seem alright to me. I'd say they're handsome. They seem like the kind of fun people I'd like to be around. I would think that women would find them attractive. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't because I just don't get it. My wife has told me that family members or friends I thought were handsome were ugly. Recently I told her how a phenomenally beautiful girl I grew up with was into a friend of mine and I didn't get it. (She's now got a baby with a movie star). I loved him, but thought he would be unattractive to women. I was shocked when she told me that he was handsome.

None of the women you mentioned are my speed even though I think they're pretty. Honestly, my standard for women is very low. I like women in all shapes in sizes and can see beauty is just about every one. Femininity really turns me on. So if they're sharp mentally and some other factors lined up I could probably work with it. But I wouldn't be fighting to keep my eyes off any of the women you mentioned. Without the makeup, lights, and fancy stylists they're probably average. There are a lot of men who would agree. It's why I'm objectively right.

I no longer look at it from a religious point of view, but from a logical one.

There is no difference for me.

[Obelisk]

Stillness, you make some good points. I'll give you my take on things, not for the sake of argument, but just as facts I've come to understand about the whole topic in general.

1) The good-looking women are with the average guys with small penises and big bank accounts.

This is psychology 101. We all know that women primarily seek security. This is where the ladder theory comes in. A large amount of money is going to matter 10 times more than if the guy has a pretty face or is hung like a horse.

however are the women that cave in to their gold digging instincts happy? Can they enjoy sex with a man like that? This is almost like sugar daddy/sugar baby stuff here. I'm sure if the guy is a millionaire the woman will stick by him like super glue, but I doubt she looks forward to having sex with him. She probably just goes "ok, just stick it in, finish your business so I can get on with my day".

Personally this is why I don't believe in money being a primary factor to attract women. What's the point if she's just with you because you're loaded? She'll probably go and bang the hot pool boy to get her physical satisfaction.

So you are correct, neither looks, nor height, nor being hung can match having a 6 digit income, but what's the point? Men like that are basically paying an escort to live with them as their wife. The guys that can do it might not care though, if they are getting what they want. No idea and I never want to find out.

2) (and this is definitely crazy and near blasphemous) A substantial number of men do not adhere to Obelisk's North American Standard of Beauty.

Objectively speaking you are wrong.

Seriously, the most beautiful woman I've ever been with was also the most troublesome.

And this is why

It's crazy that so many men wanted her and she ended up being a lesbian. My friend saw her a few weeks back and she was with her girlfriend. He said the years hadn't been kind to her. We're in our mid-thirties and she's working in fast food restaurants and topless clubs.

Instinctively wanting a good looking woman is not the same as being able to rationalize that she may not be convenient for a particular guy. Some guys can understand that. Some can't. The guys that can, are the ones you are referring to that don't adhere to my standards (lol)

I'm not saying that you can't get a beautiful woman that won't cause you grief. But if they come in contact with a lot of men who are chasing after them, it's easy for them to become prima donnas. That leads to poor life choices and problems for any man that deals with them. And beauty fades.

I totally understand this. The hottest women I've dated have been basically all the same. Unfortunately for me even the average women have been similar. Not as bad, but troublesome enough. So am I supposed to bring my standards down so much that I have to consider women that are 200lbs+ just so I can get one with a good personality? I, honest to God (if he's up there at all) would do it if she was down to earth enough to understand I could help her lose like 50lbs, get to a reasonable 150lbs (which is average for most women) and I'd be happy with that.

Thinking men know these things. Haven't you ever heard the song If You Wanna Be Happy by Jimmy Soul?

Nope, going to check it out though.

Also, it's been my experience that women don't experience attraction like us.

Women experience attraction based on the ladder theory. If it's purely based on looks, they want the hottest guy they can get, depending on what level they themselves are on. If it's for a relationship, it's balanced out on looks, money, appearance of power/control, and novelty.

I don't even know what standard you're using to judge the men as I have a really hard time with that.

There might be subtle differences in how us guys perceive other guys, but I think it's denial to say that some guys are unattractive when they are, at least in textbook, very attractive. I am 100% straight, and hot guys do nothing for me at all. I can still tell that Ryan Reynolds is a very good looking guy, as is Colin Farrell, and even Brad Pitt, although he's getting older.

I think we can safely say that a guy like Jack Black is average. He's not bad looking, but his weight brings him to average level. Danny DeVito even in his young days wasn't much of a looker either. Can you deny this?

Even if I disagree with a man about degrees of beauty, I can at least see his perspective. Take Angelina Jolie - not my style at all, but if she's yours, I'm not perplexed.

I think we have to compare "Hollywood" beauty vs "Real life" beauty. I agree that I personally find Angelina Jolie to not be very attractive to me at all. I realize that this is because I'm comparing her looks to other Hollywood women who to me, are more attractive than her. Mira Sorvino for example. She's older now, but man, 10-15 years ago she was phenomenally beautiful to me. Teri Hatcher was another beauty. Anne Hathaway also.

But, let's say that I had a chance to date a girl that was the spitting image of Angelina Jolie, and she was really sweet. I'd probably think I hit the jackpot. Her difference in beauty at that point, compared to my preferred Hollywood star choices, is marginal at best.

The camera loves her. But, I've had my wife and other women tell me that certain men were attractive and been completely caught off guard by it. It amazes me what women like. If there is a sexuality scale, I must be on the far heterosexual side, because I very rarely see men that I think are good-looking.

Same here on the heterosexuality thing. I have zero interest in men sexually. Never been aroused by one, never been turned on. I've admired bodybuilders like Arnold Swartzenegger and even wrestlers like The Rock and John Cena. Never felt any tingles down there though.

Still, John Cena is a pretty good looking guy, probably more than Arnie in his prime, or even The Rock.

And although I meant my explanations sort of toungue-in-cheek, even in this second decade of the twenty-first century masculine beauty does not get you as far as feminine beauty. A woman will much more quickly dismiss a handsome man without a certain measure of money, power, success and/or character than a man would dismiss a comparably attractive woman without those things.

Thank you for proving the ladder theory for me.

That's why everyone keeps telling you to focus more on character. It's not that women don't care or can't appreciate beauty. So, yes, you will get looks. Your looks alone just won't have the tendency to get you as far relationship-wise.

****sigh**** yes I understand this. This entire thread has been about penis size. I'd have to read back to see what my first post was in regards to this. I panicked originally when it seemed that women everywhere seemed to be sleeping with men that had huge ding dongs (I wasn't looking for info like that in particular, but I started reading in forums and comments sections, and the typical women's line was "yeah I've had some really huge ones but size doesn't matter it's what you do with it"

My first thought was "where are all these huge guys coming from? I thought really large was supposed to be rare?"

I honestly was naive at that time and thought:

1. The bigger the better. Huge would always feel better than average.
2. Women were bs'ing with the whole "it's the motion in the ocean" thing.
3. If every woman has had huge, that one aspect basically would cancel out anything else I could offer. No girl that has been with extra large would be happy with what I got. She might like me as a guy, but she'll miss that aspect of her past lovers.

So how was I supposed to feel believing "every woman has had huge" and "I could never match up"

Actually out of this entire discussion, and finding out elsewhere on the internets what I could, what eased my mind was:

1. Penis size follows a bell curve. 80% of men fall into the 5"-7" range. I fall almost in the middle of that. It seems around 10% of men fall below the average, maybe 4"-5". Maybe 8% fall into the larger than average, from 5" to 7". And maybe 2% fall into really large, 8"-9" or higher.

2. Women are really, really bad at comparing sizes. I've read many accounts of guys who admit they have maybe 7", and their girl though it was 11" because it looked big on them (they are skinny, short, girth is thin, etc). I've been comparing different sizes. Even 1" on the same body does look like a significant increase visually. I'm sure an average guy with 5" would look "smallish" to women. The same guy with 6" looks "kind of even". Same dude with 7" will look to women "wow he's lengthy" and 8" starts being "omg he's huge" territory. So you can't win. Even if you have 8", but if you're a thick guy like I am, a really skinny dude with 6", to the woman will have seemed larger, and she'll remember that penis as being larger than mine simply on the angle of perspective.

3. Really what sealed it for me was speaking to a urologist about this (yes I'm detailed and obsessive) and he told me that of thousands of patients he's seen, he can count on his fingers men that had a flaccid size of more than 5". A 5" flaccid will usually go to 7" on a "grower" and maybe only 6" on a "shower". I believe him, meaning that, there's probably a lot of guys out there around 7". 8"-9" is significantly more rare.

So there's so many variables at play that it really is a moot point to even be bothering with obsessing about anymore. The chance that a woman has has a dude with more than 7" is rare. They might "think" it was 9" or higher when it really wasn't. Of course that doesn't mean dudes like that aren't out there, but I believe the science in that if I bump into a girl who's had that massive, I have a good chance of winning the state lotto as well.

Still, if exercising my member is actually giving me a length increase, why the heck not take advantage of it? I'm sure at 6.5" I'd be on the bigger side of average for women, and definitely not the smallest.

As far as relationships go, man, I don't know, that's another can of worms. I stayed a virgin for the longest time hoping that I'd find a girl who was the same. I gave up when I realized that even the most conservative girls, have already been with 3-4 dudes by their late 20's. Frankly I think sex is something that should be shared with a woman that you know is going to be yours for life (and you belonging to her).

I'm not religious anymore, but I do understand why the ancients believed as they did. Turning sex into a sport where you experience all types of women (and women all types of men) takes away from the bond you could form with one particular person. The science proves this as well (read up on the hormones that are released during sex). This is one of the main reasons people get attached, women most of all, and why, women most of all, end up being hurt when the guy just wanted to get off and didn't care about her.

As a religious guy I know you understand where I'm coming from. I no longer look at it from a religious point of view, but from a logical one. Having had some limited sexual experience has made me realize this.

[Stillness]

I see tons of good looking guys with average women.

I propose two explanations:

1) The good-looking women are with the average guys with small penises and big bank accounts.

2) (and this is definitely crazy and near blasphemous) A substantial number of men do not adhere to Obelisk's North American Standard of Beauty.

Seriously, the most beautiful woman I've ever been with was also the most troublesome. It's crazy that so many men wanted her and she ended up being a lesbian. My friend saw her a few weeks back and she was with her girlfriend. He said the years hadn't been kind to her. We're in our mid-thirties and she's working in fast food restaurants and topless clubs.

I'm not saying that you can't get a beautiful woman that won't cause you grief. But if they come in contact with a lot of men who are chasing after them, it's easy for them to become prima donnas. That leads to poor life choices and problems for any man that deals with them. And beauty fades. Thinking men know these things. Haven't you ever heard the song If You Wanna Be Happy by Jimmy Soul?

Also, it's been my experience that women don't experience attraction like us. I don't even know what standard you're using to judge the men as I have a really hard time with that. Even if I disagree with a man about degrees of beauty, I can at least see his perspective. Take Angelina Jolie - not my style at all, but if she's yours, I'm not perplexed. The camera loves her. But, I've had my wife and other women tell me that certain men were attractive and been completely caught off guard by it. It amazes me what women like. If there is a sexuality scale, I must be on the far heterosexual side, because I very rarely see men that I think are good-looking.

And although I meant my explanations sort of toungue-in-cheek, even in this second decade of the twenty-first century masculine beauty does not get you as far as feminine beauty. A woman will much more quickly dismiss a handsome man without a certain measure of money, power, success and/or character than a man would dismiss a comparably attractive woman without those things. That's why everyone keeps telling you to focus more on character. It's not that women don't care or can't appreciate beauty. So, yes, you will get looks. Your looks alone just won't have the tendency to get you as far relationship-wise.

[Obelisk]

Whether a woman is a virgin doesn't affect my opinion of her in the slightest (and didn't when I was younger). People may engage in first sex at a variety of ages depending on the situation. Sometimes is it a good choice, sometimes a bad one, but not something I would ever judge another person on.

Well all I said is that, the stereotype as far as society is concerned, is that if a woman is a virgin, it's because she was picky to not give it up to just any man. If a guy is a virgin, it's because he hasn't been able to find a woman to lose it with.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

[rcoreyus]

Whether a woman is a virgin doesn't affect my opinion of her in the slightest (and didn't when I was younger). People may engage in first sex at a variety of ages depending on the situation. Sometimes is it a good choice, sometimes a bad one, but not something I would ever judge another person on.

[Obelisk]

Are you saying 47 is old? That's when I met my fiancée ..... Right on... Age is a number.

Well I look about 10 years younger than I actually am. People are shocked when they find out I'm mid 30's. Most of the time people think I'm mid 20's, so at least I got that going for me.

A combination of reasons - religion was one, as was fear of pregnancy and disease,

I was a virgin too until my 30's I wish I would have stayed one. I still believe we should save ourselves for that one person we'll spend our lives with. I wasn't sexually active back then for the exact same reasons as you. Right now I'm pretty much back to being non active.

but I stopped after using a certain size because I did not want to become "too stretched". (I actually went online and looked for avg circumference so I would be stretched enough that it would not be painful but not so stretched that it would reduce either of our feeling.)

Hmm, well I'll give you my opinion based on what I've learned.

Average penis size seems to be from 5" - 6". Around 80% of men are supposed to fall into this area. Average girth is supposed to be anywhere from 4" to 5" and the variation is way lower from what I've been able to find.

So basically, the chance that a guy will be longer than 6" is probably about 10%. Significantly longer maybe 5".

Girth however seems to be relatively even. Meaning, even 8"-9" guys typically should be around 4"-5" also. The chance of a guy being more than 5" girth is probably around 5%, if we go by all the studies that have been done.

So girth wise, if you can fit 5" comfortably you should be fine, and I wouldn't worry at all about stretching anything.

I personally want length primarily just so I look bigger. I know 1" or even 2" extra is probably not going to matter much as far as what a woman feels, but it sure as heck will make a difference in the visual department

I'm not sure what I should do with girth. From what I've found from guys using penis pumps and such, once they were at 6" girth, it starts being uncomfortable for most women, and lube is usually required. So I'm actually kind of happy I'm already 5" naturally, kind of the middle ground.

When we next met in person, I told him that I was a virgin and at first one of his reactions was that it would be difficult, painful and or bloody - this is before I told him that I had "taking care of that"

Trust me, women are appreciated for being virgins. I'm not sure men would be. As far as society is concerned, a woman being a virgin means she saved herself and was picky to choose a good man. A man being a virgin means he was a loser who couldn't find a woman.
If a woman told me she was a virgin, honestly, my opinion of her would increase quite a bit. I would wish that I would have saved myself like she did.

SO while I know I am not the "norm" or avg. I would like a guy who is not too huge. To your point quoted above - I do think that women can be judged as being too big or too small vaginally (and most certainly we get it about our breasts, waist, butts, etc.)

I suppose so. I never really thought about it much from a woman's point of view to be honest. I think it's easier for average looking women to find men than the reverse. When I am over 20% bf it's almost impossible for any woman to be attracted to me, even if she is not really a looker. I see tons of good looking guys with average women. I hardly see the reverse in my area.

[Justice]

Women are nowhere near the same in the expectation level of whatever vagina size they have. Men never sit there and go "wow what a small vagina" or "what a large vagina" unless it's so small it's uncomfortable, or so large that even a large penis isn't felt as well. There is no measurement a woman is expected to have. .

The point I have to take issue with. I am rather old for a virgin - but I am "technically" a virgin (A combination of reasons - religion was one, as was fear of pregnancy and disease, and I have always been very tight (couldn't even use a tampon when I was young) but mostly I had never been in a mutual relationship with anyone I wanted to have sex with. And it became more complicated by anxiety and then the older I got.)

Recently I met a guy - although I was attracted to him, I thought that we would be communicating only about work. Well his emails turned personal very quickly and then got hot and erotic. (other complications exist). I started using dilators since I was considering having sex with him; but I stopped after using a certain size because I did not want to become "too stretched". (I actually went online and looked for avg circumference so I would be stretched enough that it would not be painful but not so stretched that it would reduce either of our feeling.)

When we next met in person, I told him that I was a virgin and at first one of his reactions was that it would be difficult, painful and or bloody - this is before I told him that I had "taking care of that" :P It still seemed like he might be a bit put off - but later he wrote about a new fantasy about... having a nice tight......

SO while I know I am not the "norm" or avg. I would like a guy who is not too huge. To your point quoted above - I do think that women can be judged as being too big or too small vaginally (and most certainly we get it about our breasts, waist, butts, etc.) .

[kdc]

Say you meet the woman of your dreams--this Victoria Secret-type woman. As the years go by, people tend to age, and their bodies tend to change. Once that happens, will you discard your mate and look for another woman?

I was one of those hot babes when DH and I met and married, but I look nothing like my pictures from almost 40 years ago.

If you base your relationship with your mate strictly on the physical, I'm afraid you're probably going to be sorely disappointed down the road.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Are you saying 47 is old? That's when I met my fiancée ..... Right on... Age is a number.