[LizziB]

Thanks for your nice comment at the end.

I get where you are coming from with your own body image and confidence, as I used to be stick thin too, but after starting doing physical work and learning to surf, I actually got muscle tone on my arms (almost had a 6 pack at one point!) got tanned, natural sun bleached blonde hair and yeah, I felt sexy. And I began to notice guys noticing me, always feeling invisible to guys it was very gratifying and yes, helped my confidence. Its only human...

As for emotional baggage, well I think everyone has some of that. my Dad was a perfectionist and also arrogant, and it was his way or the highway, and I grew up never feeling good enough. I still react badly to criticism, and take offhand comments personally, usually completely irrationally. The thing is, nobody is perfect, you're not perfect, no girl is perfect, and no relationship is perfect. I think if you can find someone you click with, so long as there are no deal breakers, you've just got to put in the hard yards, accept the 'flaws' and commit.

I don't think 35 is too late at all, people still find love well into old age.

[Stillness]

I would however argue that we are in North America, and we have to accept the beauty standards here.

The thing that makes these discussions with you so seductive is that you're clearly an intelligent, thoughtful, humble, and likeable guy. What makes them so frustrating is when you come out of left field with comments like this. It's almost like your 12 year old brother snatched the keyboard from you to type it. What does this even mean? Are you saying that your concept of beauty is the "North American Standard" so that people who deviate from it are wrong? I don't think that either one of our countries has thought police...yet. (Although yours comes scarily closer than mine).

Also, you can't determine the size of someone's genitals from their height, Obelisk. You've got layer upon layer of demonstrably false concepts that are built up on one another and leaving you with unnecessary feelings of hopelessness.

[Obelisk]

Stillness, you make valid points. I would however argue that we are in North America, and we have to accept the beauty standards here. I have a Persian buddy who is like you, he looooves his big booty. I tend to go more for symmetry. Basically, as long as the woman is evenly shaped, the actual size of her assets doesn't matter much to me (it does a little, but what? 5% maybe?). And yes that dude confuses me on end to the types of women he finds attractive. He finds the women I like boring
(For the record, I'm half Greek half Spanish, and I have no ethnic preference except that from personal experience, as well as what I've been told by others, smaller asian girls tend to have smaller vaginas. Other than that, I like skinny girls with some shape a lot. Maybe that's my fitness side influencing me, I don't know)

I'm 5"2 or 5"3 or thereabouts, so probably what would be considered small, though I feel like its a pretty average height really. Anyway I suppose I'm supporting your theory.

Yes, somewhat, thanks lol

As for your comments on 'flaws'... I've not got great skin. I've had mild to moderate acne for almost the last 10 years

I know a lot has been said on this thread, and maybe I've come across as some superficial loser. I know I am not. I would definitely say I have some standards, but that doesn't mean I will only consider 8's or 9's. I don't think I'm an 8. I'm maybe a 7 when you factor everything in. For me weight is the big thing though. If a girl is not significantly overweight, other flaws are much easier to deal with. Acne is something I probably wouldn't care much about unless it was severe, in which case I would say it's a medical condition.

So would that bother you to see a moderately attractive girl wearing no make up when she could make herself more attractive with it?

Honestly? No, it wouldn't bother me at all.

Maybe its just a personal thing, but I think people are way more attractive when they are happy and confident in themselves, much more than say a girl who is very attractive but also very insecure and won't go outside without make up.

No I agree, but the thing is (and this is my personal view, so take it for what it's worth) that you have you have something to be confident about. When I was a skinny fat loser in high school, I had zero confidence (My thoughts were "why would girls bother with me?"). When I started getting buff my confidence rose quite a bit. At one point people would call me on my arrogance. It took a while to get there. I knew I wanted 17" arms minimum to even wear a short sleeve shirt, and after a few years I was able to achieve it. It's still a part of what gives me confidence. I'm sure the guys walking around with 9" dicks feel the same way about that body part. I have no idea because I'm only average there.

my point being, I look at people as being different, (not flawed) and the true worth of a person being their character. That is, I would be more attracted to a friendly, kind, honest guy than to an arrogant, bad tempered, hot guy.

I know, and I agree. In the end, I too would prefer an average looking girl that was super down to earth and a cool chick to be with, than a really hot model girl that was self absorbed and only thinking about what her "hotness" entitles her to. I've been at that end lol. Unfortunately the "average" girls I've dated also turned out with that emotional baggage.

I'm kind of just lost right now to be honest. Frustrated in the whole dating game and the ridiculously unreasonable standards both guys and girls have to achieve to even be considered. I wish I would have had some sort of social circle, maybe I wouldn't have to rely on looks alone to get women's attention. At 35 it might not matter much anymore. I'm glad you found your man, and I hope you have mutual love for each other that last for your lifetime. That's all I ever wanted. It's too late to get that now.

[LizziB]

Tried quoting you but im only on my phone and was having trouble with it, so I hope you can follow.

" No, I do value your opinion. How small are you? By that I mean, what's your height?"

I'm 5"2 or 5"3 or thereabouts, so probably what would be considered small, though I feel like its a pretty average height really. Anyway I suppose I'm supporting your theory.

As for your comments on 'flaws'... I've not got great skin. I've had mild to moderate acne for almost the last 10 years. Obviously I've had plenty of insecurity about it, but I've come to a place where I am happy and comfortable in my skin and will go out in public without make up and still feel attractive. In fact,I often feel more attractive when I'm 'natural' than when I am wearing make up. So would that bother you to see a moderately attractive girl wearing no make up when she could make herself more attractive with it?

Maybe its just a personal thing, but I think people are way more attractive when they are happy and confident in themselves, much more than say a girl who is very attractive but also very insecure and won't go outside without make up.

In my experience, its not my 'flaws' that have given me the most difficulty relationship wise, but my personality. I'm quite shy and quiet, especially in my teenage years, and I often saw 'unattractive' people getting into relationships, and so I always believed that a fun outgoing personality was more attractive than looks (in some cases). my point being, I look at people as being different, (not flawed) and the true worth of a person being their character. That is, I would be more attracted to a friendly, kind, honest guy than to an arrogant, bad tempered, hot guy.

My bf isn't what most people would consider good looking. I've even hard on the grapevine that people think his brother is ugly, and they're not so different. But he's attractive to me, and that's all that counts in the end.

[rcoreyus]

And how I felt. Some discussions simply can never converge because people's assumptions going in are too different.

Now you know how I felt on that origin of life thread.

[Stillness]

I think you need to take a broader look. Different cultures now and throughout history have different takes on beauty. In the west, large-chested women used to pin their breasts down because they were considered unattractive. In Rome large penises were considered animalistic. Not two hours ago I heard the new Miss America saying that her family warned her to stay away from sunshine so her skin could be as light as possible, but her peers adored her skin. There are plenty of cultures who consider heavy-set people attractive. In ours thin used to be unattractive, now it's the ideal. You may have seen that meme floating around with the old American advertisement for women to put on weight. Look at some of the classic nudes that have small penises on the men and thicker women with small breasts.

Aside from that, there are individual differences. I like big butts and I can not lie. The KhoiKhoi people put the women I like to shame. They like 'em really big. Their women have proportionately huge bottoms because of the selective pressure. I think I've seen you say you don't care for ample booty. (I don't either, not that big, although I must say it is hypnotizing). Most of the beauty pageant winners I see are not that attractive to me. They're not necessarily ugly, but they wouldn't win my contest. Apparently they fit some broad appeal that the judges' opinions reflect. A lot of men wouldn't give them a second look. I've seen it time and time again that me and the people I come in contact with, men and women, have very different takes on what's attractive.

I think that there are some more universal indicators, like clear skin, an hourglass figure for women, broader shoulders and a narrower waist for men, white teeth, etc. Those things leave a lot of room for variety. And even they are not set in stone. Culture, background, and individual preference are extremely important in our species. For you to hold your opinion, you have to disregard and minimize a lot of human history, various cultures, and individual preference. That seems like exactly what you do. It's why so many take issue with you.

[Obelisk]

If something is universally true it's objective. Your personal preference, even if it's shared by some people, is subjective. It is not absolute truth.

I think personal preferences differ but they don't stray too far from what's considered universally attractive.

I'm sure that women consider Ryan Reynolds and Ryan Gosling to be different but at least somewhat equally attractive.

Not sure if a guy like Jack Black or Kevin Smith would be considered on that same range. I'm sure their fame and money get them lots of women, but take all that away and who would women find more attractive?

We men I think would also agree on our choices for hot women. They may have small differences in appearance, but there's a universal shape that is attractive to all, not matter what preferences they have.

Obelisk starts with the postulate that everyone can be graded on a scale of attractiveness, that you can take any two women (or men) and say which one is more attractive. If that is true then a lot of what he believes follows rationally.

This postulate is presumably true for some people, including obelisk. I think they only major flaw in his reasoning is that he doesn't believe that it is not true for a large number of people. In my case there are many women that I think are beautiful and who I could not compare on a scale. Obelisk seems to interpret this as my being politically correct an not wanting to grade women. There is no way that I can convince him that he is wrong in this.

This is exactly right. And you are also right in that even I don't know what it would take to convince me otherwise. I tend to see people pair up, honestly, with what they can get. It's not a bad thing if they are happy I suppose, but I don't believe that deep down who they are with was their first choice.

It really doesn't matter much anymore. My views are pieced together from my own experiences. I'm sure I'd have different views if my experiences had been different.

[Stillness]

There is no way that I can convince him that he is wrong in this.

Now you know how I felt on that origin of life thread.

[rcoreyus]

Obelisk starts with the postulate that everyone can be graded on a scale of attractiveness, that you can take any two women (or men) and say which one is more attractive. If that is true then a lot of what he believes follows rationally.

This postulate is presumably true for some people, including obelisk. I think they only major flaw in his reasoning is that he doesn't believe that it is not true for a large number of people. In my case there are many women that I think are beautiful and who I could not compare on a scale. Obelisk seems to interpret this as my being politically correct an not wanting to grade women. There is no way that I can convince him that he is wrong in this.

[Stillness]

From an objective point of view, yes they would be flaws, since they make a person struggle more to be more attractive to a potential mate.

If something is universally true it's objective. Your personal preference, even if it's shared by some people, is subjective. It is not absolute truth.