[kdc]

I get what JonDoe is saying. Many years ago, after ten years of marriage, we had a bad case of non-communication. I remember sitting int he floor, begging him to just talk to me. I got nothing but crickets. That broke the camel's back for me, and I packed up and left and filed for divorce. At that point, all love was lost, and I couldn't stand looking at the man, either. We did get back together, but we were separated a full six months before that happened. This was a true act of God, IMO. DH became a totally different man during that six months. It's now 27 years later. He hasn't gone back to being the turd he used to be. Thank God. 8-)

[Lady Syrinx]

There has to be some motivation in order for someone to take the initiative. Again I can only look at my own situation as an illustration. The motivations for sex are usually your partner's pleasure and your own pleasure. I thought doing my "wifely duty" was pleasing my husband. It had the opposite effect What was left for me, my own pleasure, I had little to no response. The phrase cruel irony comes to mind. My husband wanted me to initiate but it seemed like a zero sum game to me. Why initiate sex if it's going to end with neither of us getting what we needed/wanted out of it? He would also mention trying to "spice things up." No motivation there either, I had completely forgotten how sex supposed to feel.

There was communication breakdown as well. In 2009 he went back to school to get his MCSE certification. That was highly stressful because as each class ended he had to take the certification test for that subject. So it seemed like when he was home he was either studying or going to take the test. He was working too. I wanted to keep the times we were together as light as possible. I decided that discussing anything regarding problems in our relationship was "more stress than he needed." I should never have taken it upon myself to to decide what would cause him stress. Ultimately I became a very angry person because I was bottling all this up or I was running to others for comfort. the communication started to change in 2010. Things slowly got better but the communication still wasn't where it should've been. Finally in early 2012 we had a very long talk. After that talk the communication improved and it's still improving,

[Josephlin101]

After reading the threads, I feel like we don't exactly understand Jondoe's situation. His partner might be totally selfish, but that also could be only from his perspective. No matter what though, it's very obvious that the relationship isn't working due to perceived inequality. Hope all is well with you Jondoe.
My two cents is: Yes, a relationship is supported by both parties. Both parties must invest fully. However, at the same time we can't ask our partners to be who they are not. For example, ItsASecret's husband not only wants a BJ, but also wants her to talk dirty. If it's too difficult for her, this hubby should not push it in my opinion. Not everyone can be like those women in porn. Actually, research (sorry, I'm a psychologist) shows that people who watch porn are more likely to devalue their partners and relationships. They should together compromise and find a middle group they both can accept. It's unfair to say "I've done the chores, now give me the best BJ and be my *****, cause I deserve it."

Sex between my wife and I is a bit... unequal as well? She isn't into it as much as I do. She's quite conservative. And I hate to make people do things they don't really want. So I don't. In the beginning of our marriage I initiated a bit more often, but after some turn downs I learn to wait for her initiation. I don't believe I've ever turned her down. Now she complains I never initiate... she wants to be pursued sometimes. That's a legit desire. But I've been turned down many times and I hate that. Sometimes during the day she'll agree to have fun at night, but when the night comes she says she's too tired. Also whenever I talk about the topic of sex she doesn't like to listen, implies I have nothing better to think. We have our problems.

But usually sex, same with other marital problems, isn't just one party's fault. Chores aren't an issue--I do as much chores as her, if not more, because we both work. In fact, I probably cook more. But she wants more affection during the day such as hugging and talking, I try my best but sometimes I'm not happy with her so naturally I don't hug and talk as much as she wants. Guess I'll have to work on that.

Or, I just find my own outlet. Don't get the wrong idea, I'm too ugly and poor to have affairs, and porn is not exactly my tea. But I like to write stories, and I very much enjoy it in my fantasies... hee hee.

[jns]

Joseph, as much as JonDoe wants more good sex in his relationship, he wants to have a relationship where he feels valued. When you talk about your wife wanting more affection, that is her wanting to be more valued. As with JonDoe wanting his wife to make an effort, your wife wants you to make an effort. I have done something to feed my own marriage on this. Before I leave for work I give my wife a kiss, usually on the cheek or forehead and tell her that I love her and will see her at night. I do it every time and it is especially important when we have disagreed about something the night before. It tells her that even though we have a disagreement our relationship is still strong. Consider that when you know your wife needs to feel the bonding.

Pursue your wife even though you get shot down a lot. You pursuing her tells her that you desire her. That should make her happy, at least in part.

I'm sure BJs were around before modern porn (porn was around during the days of Rome and I expect even before that.) I think the Kama Sutra described fellatio. Porn may have popularized BJs, but having good hygiene probably has done that also. A hundred or more years ago hygiene was such that many people thought it unwise to bathe very often.

I think in many cases things like BJs are not countered by an somewhat equivalent action on the receiver's part so an inequitable situation results. Of course, some people just don't like certain things and as such, they are off of the table. If everything is off of the table, that creates an inequitable situation that needs to be resolved.

In this forum we mostly get one side of the story. What we have to decide is if the person relating the story is telling it unembellished enough to give us a reasonable understanding of what is going on.

[JonDoe]

In this forum we mostly get one side of the story. What we have to decide is if the person relating the story is telling it unembellished enough to give us a reasonable understanding of what is going on.

Agreed. I'll be the first to admit that I have flaws and make mistakes, However, I own my mistakes and apologize unlike my wife, who usually gives excuses and/or tries to put all of the blame on me.

My wife and I are in counseling again for the second time. The counselor, who is female, not that it should matter, is as baffled by my wife's self-centeredness as I am. The self-centeredness has to be improved for this relationship to have any hope. Unfortunately, my wife believes that we go to counseling once per week for an hour and then any issues should be saved for discussing in counseling, which simply isn't going to work.

There is more to my story that I'm not comfortable sharing on this public forum. Suffice it to say that some significant recent events highlight the self-centeredness at a whole new level.

[Josephlin101]

Before I leave for work I give my wife a kiss, usually on the cheek or forehead and tell her that I love her and will see her at night. I do it every time and it is especially important when we have disagreed about something the night before. It tells her that even though we have a disagreement our relationship is still strong. Consider that when you know your wife needs to feel the bonding.

Pursue your wife even though you get shot down a lot. You pursuing her tells her that you desire her. That should make her happy, at least in part.

I guess you're right. Interestingly, I'll say there's a cultural difference. We're Asian, and we're not used to expressing our affection so explicitly. A true story demonstrates this: an Asian couple (not us) when to counseling. The wife complains that every time they have argument, he'll quietly go wash dishes or do some chores. The counselor asks him why, he says that's just his way of expressing his affection. (BTW, what's funny is that when the counselor tells her about it, she says: "So the dishes are more important than me?" I'll say this is not a typical Asian wife's behavior.)

We tend to do things instead of say things to show our affection--in our culture, words can be useless and even phony if that's all one does--what's the use of saying "I love you" but don't do the chores? That'll be a joke, a hypocrite. I remember watching an episode of "Everybody Loves Rayman," Rayman has a hard time saying "I love you" to his wife. I smiled: we even have a hard time to say I love you to our kids. Our culture teaches us that as long as I do things for you, you should know that it is out of love (yeah, not a good assumption). For example, I like cooking for my family, usually the biggest meals of the week are Sat. and Sun nights. My wife will order what she likes and I'll do it (e.g., fried squids, steak, or something new), sometimes the preparation takes half of the whole afternoon. But I get satisfaction and warm feeling when I see her (and kids', of course) face of enjoyment. The point is: I find it much easier doing things instead of saying it.

And my wife is a typical Asian woman: kids are her first concern. She'll invest much more energy and time on kids, and to us that's our culture, nothing wrong with it. Years ago I suggested that every week we should eat out, you know, like candle light dinner, as a romantic date. She said no, "because eating out without kids makes me feel guilty." I was disappointed, but understood.

That said, giving her a kiss and tells her I love you even when there's a disagreement is a good advice. It's difficult I should admit, and emotionally I do have resistance. But I'll try, at least start from some easier things like hugs.

By the way, Jondoe, good luck and best wishes on the counseling, no matter what the outcome is.

[atskitty2]

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and describe the picture that's been created in my mind. Maybe I'm completely off base, but I am going to put it out there for you to think on, and hopefully others may validate my theory or call me foolish.
I can agree that your wife seems selfish. But I'm beginning to think you're enabling her love of self. You have said how well you treat her, getting her coffee for her, watching chick flicks for her, etc... Do you watch movies you want too? Is she sick that she can't get her own coffee? Maybe she has no respect for you because you're kissing her princess ***? Lol? Seriously tho...maybe you're just too nice all the time? Too catering and looking after her needs, and making this relationship about HER needs and comfort and not demanding respect and equality in how you treat each other. It seems you're making this relationship about her, in general, trying to keep her happy?

Sorry, I hope this doesn't come off harshly, but really, I know a lot of women who complain of men who just do too much for them...I am one of them.
I think you need to stop pampering her. She can get her own coffee...I do it every day!

And ya know, if you cut the perks and the five star service, and she throws a fit and leaves...you say you're about finished anyway right?

I do hope this is received lightheartedly as I intend it

[rcoreyus]

It may be that you can fall into a trap. "A" wants more affection from "B". A starts doing more things for B, but the problem is that B doesn't really have much respect for A. As A does more, it just makes them seem more "needy", and maybe a bit pathetic, and rather than being grateful, B feels even less respect. They may also (correct or not) see all of A's favors as an attempt to "pay" for the affection A wants. Situation continues to degenerate.

Maybe this is why some people have found ultimatums to work. A says that they have had enough and the problem needs to end or they will leave. Of course in that case A needs to be willing to leave and not come crawling back.

Its sad, since often A is doing all this out a love that B misinterprets as weakness.

[JonDoe]

I don't do all of these acts of kindness every day. For example, I'll get her a coffee every few weeks. Flowers every few months. Some are daily like saying nice things, other things vary.

[jen1447]

I think kitty may be onto something here, altho I'm reluctant to point fingers at any one thing as an explanation due to the length of your marriage (which just implies tons of potential variables). In fact I think it was because of the length of your marriage that I completely overlooked what she suggested. Also she's just smart. But anyway, suffice it to say that resentment due to over-niceness and over-accommodation is a very real thing for women. I'm reluctant to just be out with it here because it wouldn't be very flattering but ....yeah. I know it seems contradictory, wrong, unfair, mixed signals, dishonest, whatever else you might want to call it ....yep. Doesn't matter, still exists.