[jen1447]

Couple things ....imo it's definitely true about women's potential to be equally or moreso manipulative when it comes to sexual exploitation. If you ever really want to see a criminal mastermind, watch how some women control and manipulate some situations to their advantage. There are plenty of guys who've been left in the garbage dumpster of relationship disasters due to the straight up scandalous behavior of women.

If an adult woman, or even a GUY for that matter (yes I've been used too, life goes on), is naive enough to assume anything beyond what has been clearly stated so far in the interaction, then they deserve the rude wake up call they are going to get, so they remember to not put themselves in a position like this in the future. It's called life, and life teaches us lessons. If someone is so enthralled with the idea of someone that they can't control their thought process, that's like saying I'm so horny that I can't control my penis, and should not be held accountable for anything I say/do (which obviously is not true). It takes two RESPONSIBLE people to tango.

I do think this is going a bit far. No one deserves to be mistreated, no matter their misconceptions, just like no one deserves to be murdered because they were dumb enough to put themselves at risk. We also have to be careful with what we classify as "lack of control." Romance matters in particular aren't really governed by the analytical mind, so describing someone who's so poorly affected by a bad romance that to them it makes more sense to die rather than live without someone can't really be described as simply using poor judgement. They're obviously being heavily influenced by factors outside their immediate control, and their mental state can probably be more closely linked to insanity than anything else. Blaming them or their judgement for being unwitting victims within that context seems harsh. (And I say unwitting because brain chemistry can be a really sneaky thing. No one really notices the permanent endorphine high you get fixed with from the rush of a new, exciting relationship, but you sure as hell notice when the fix suddenly stops.)

[Archer]

Romance matters in particular aren't really governed by the analytical mind, so describing someone who's so poorly affected by a bad romance that to them it makes more sense to die rather than live without someone can't really be described as simply using poor judgement. They're obviously being heavily influenced by factors outside their immediate control, and their mental state can probably be more closely linked to insanity than anything else. Blaming them or their judgement for being unwitting victims within that context seems harsh. (And I say unwitting because brain chemistry can be a really sneaky thing. No one really notices the permanent endorphine high you get fixed with from the rush of a new, exciting relationship, but you sure as hell notice when the fix suddenly stops.)

Ok fair enough. But even moreso, the opposite party can't be blamed either, unless he/she is deliberately manipulating the other person.

It is not on me to carry the weight of someone else's possibly undiagnosed insanity on my shoulders.

[jen1447]

I would agree they shouldn't be blamed in general (certainly not held accountable in any formal way, like being the target of lawsuits, etc.), but the lines are still foggy. What if they turned up the charm so much that they inadvertently hooked the other person beyond their reasonable ability to get out of it cleanly? That wouldn't be overt manipulation necessarily, but imo it would still suggest some responsibility to them.

I guess to each their own, but if it was me I'd do whatever I could short of any course of action that would directly harm myself to help that person thru it. I've been on the dumping end quite a few times where I stayed in contact with the other person to ease the pain (always with boundaries tho) rather than just walk away from them. To me, doing otherwise is kinda irresponsible no matter how you slice it, unless they're straight up crazy and/or dangerous. No offense.

[Archer]

\What if they turned up the charm so much that they inadvertently hooked the other person beyond their reasonable ability to get out of it cleanly? That wouldn't be overt manipulation necessarily, but imo it would still suggest some responsibility to them.

Wait. What if they were too charming? Ugh. I don't think I can sincerely respond to this line of thought lol, no offense! We're talking about measuring and judging the immeasurable now.

[jen1447]

What, you've never been swept off your feet?

[Archer]

I wouldn't blame the sweeper!

[Trixareforkids]

Maybe it comes from my calm in emergencies gene but I do not believe that people go crazy (not responsible for their actions) for love or lust. No one is riding pheromones/chemical high ALL the time. There's always that annoying voice of reason somewhere in your head, I think it could abandon you long enough for a one-night stand but nothing beyond that.

[Justice]

. . . I think that straight up telling a girl "I want us to use each other for sex" is a quick journey of no return to the creeper blacklist pile in 99% of cases. The situation I am in has temporarily changed for now, and I'm not dating women because of it. I would never lead a girl to believe that I will be here for her when I won't. That's why I'm looking more specifically for something like FB or even FWB.

This may be a comment for the "chauvinism" post, but I don't owe anybody ****************. I know what I want when I see it, and as long as I'm not straight up lying to someone, I have a right to pursue it.

Justice, I agree, most of you are giving very solid, honest responses. And I appreciate it! I just want to make sure we nip the whole "innocent girls" and "predatory players" thing in the bud.

But see this is where I think you are not being 100% truthful. I do not believe that you want FWB you want the BENEFITs (w/o the Friends part) or several F- buddies. And while that is totally not for me, you have a right to feel how you do, but please do not lie (even by parsing or omission).

It seems to me that you pretty clearly do NOT want FWB. You comment about you NOT

straight up telling a girl "I want us to use each other for sex"

when that is in fact what you want, seems pretty much like a lie to me.

And what do you mean by

STRAIGHT UP LYING

because it sure as he77 seems like you mean like evade or mislead without saying "I WANT TO USE YOU FOR SEX but I have no interest in even being friends and oh, if I can get 5 other women to scr3w me and you will too, I'll put you into the rotation"

I am not trying to jump on this but I do think this kind of "word-smithing" /parsing does support the non-innocent or predatory comments. At least a concern.

[Justice]

Wait. What if they were too charming? Ugh. I don't think I can sincerely respond to this line of thought lol, no offense! We're talking about measuring and judging the immeasurable now.

This kind of reminds me of that friend Jen posted about... and people who crave or "need" a relationship. Yes someone can be "too charming"

Also where Jen wrote have you never been swept off your feet. I was friends and had a outlandishly flirtatious "relationship" with a single guy I worked with. He even joked about his ability to charm people - single women in particular. Being friends with him really messed with my head. Not only was I convinced that at some point we'd have more of a relationship, everyone we worked with and people who saw us interact were certain that we were married "or at least a couple". Several said that in front of us and others said it to me. Noone believed that we were "just friends". And I did not want to be, but it can be very awkward when you are co-workers and "friends" as well.


IMO I consider that kind of .. I don't know if Deceitful is the word. But charming someone to that point just to feed your ego is definitely not very nice.

[atskitty2]

Archer, you made comments on one of my threads about steering conversations in a way you would like it to go, skirting questions and that sort of thing. I think that's common, and let me say that I don't think that's wrong of itself. But I think there are times to just say what you feel, think, want and need. When another person's potential feelings, needs and wants are involved, I think we have a responsibility to disclose our goal for that interaction.

I wouldn't suggest you tell someone you want to use her for sex. This is about having enough consideration for another (possibly fragile) human being that you provide enough info for them to make the choice best for them. A simple statement like, "I'm not looking for a relationship, just fun right now. I have too much going on for the constraints of a relationship."
I've had men tell me straight up they just want sex too.

We all go into anything with different expectations. All you really need to do is make your goals known up front, in case that other person has something much more in mind. It is common courtesy to me. communication! Some women go on a date thinking its a date and nothing more. Some women think its the mark of exclusivity. When some girls give it up with their men, they think it means they're now an item, others think it's just sex...we don't know til we discuss it.
I don't think of it as victim/predator...it's 2 adults discussing what is good for them.

If someone doesn't believe you, thinks you'll change or has some emotional stability issues, I don't think that's your fault. Stating your needs honestly removes you from that responsibility to me.
Not being forthright does leave you partly responsible if they misunderstood or jumped to conclusion.

I skimmed this...hope the topic hasn't veered in another direction.