[Ashlee T.]

The "breaks" look like html or BBCode. It's embedded into all of our posts, every time we hit enter or do any other formatting. But...why do yours show and ours don't?

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. We can start another one to discuss this topic further if necessary.

[Stillness]

It seems to me that the waters are being muddied by using limited definitions. There's a reason that the acts you all are talking about are called anal sex or oral sex. Intercourse doesn't just mean piv.

Think about it this way: Let's say two people are dating and the question of sexual experience comes up. One person asks the other, "have you ever had sex?" The answer is either yes, no, or one of those with some explanation. Like, "yes, but I've never had piv sex."

That's real stuff that speaks to the person's sexual history. It doesn't matter whether or not you put a label on it, but there is a word that we have to label it.

[DreamP346]

Think about it this way: Let's say two people are dating and the question of sexual experience comes up. One person asks the other, "have you ever had sex?" The answer is either yes, no, or one of those with some explanation. Like, "yes, but I've never had piv sex."

So what is sex is defined by the person having it? That actually proves my point. What sex is and thus, what virginity is, is a subjective concept determined by culture, society and often religious factors. Therefore it is a social construct: something created by society. It is not a fact like saying being human or having legs or being an amputee.

[Stillness]

So when your doctor asks if you're sexually active, what do you say? "There is no spoon."

[DreamP346]

So when your doctor asks if you're sexually active, what do you say? "There is no spoon."

Doesn't matter how I answer if sex is not defined. I could be just doing mutual masterbation but if I don't consider it sex (again, my opinion), then I would answer "no." Or if I consider solo masterbation sex, I would say "yes" even though no partner is in my life.

Do you see how the subjective opinion keeps defining things here and those opinions are different for individuals/society?

[Stillness]

No I don't. It seems like you've overthought a simple issue.

What I do think is individual and cultural is concepts of chastity. Some cultures may view it is improper for an unmarried man and woman to be alone together. A person may reason that casual sex is loose, but sex in a committed relationship is okay. Someone else may engage in some sex acts, but may refrain from other until marriage. A few years ago my uncle told me that he's amazed how women today are so quick to engage in oral sex, but tend to delay piv. When he was young, it was the opposite. Oral sex was something special, and you might not even be able to get it in a serious relationship. That's all relative.

[DreamP346]

No I don't. It seems like you've overthought a simple issue.

What I do think is individual and cultural is concepts of chastity. Some cultures may view it is improper for an unmarried man and woman to be alone together. A person may reason that casual sex is loose, but sex in a committed relationship is okay. Someone else may engage in some sex acts, but may refrain from other until marriage. A few years ago my uncle told me that he's amazed how women today are so quick to engage in oral sex, but tend to delay piv. When he was young, it was the opposite. Oral sex was something special, and you might not even be able to get it in a serious relationship. That's all relative.

We are not defining chastity. We are defining virginity. And I have yet to read/hear a definitive definition of virginity that is universally accepted, that doesn't have holes in it, that isn't up for interpretation and that is a clear absolute condition/state. You define virginity as not having sex. But then you provide vague explanations of sex that are not universally accepted. That itself is a social construct. Your opinion and values as shaped by your experiences, society, culture and religion has shaped your view. You have socially created a definition of virginity. It is not a scientific/medical state.

For example, let me ask you this. Are the following people virgins:
Somebody who masturbated with hands
Somebody who masturbated with toys
A women who masturbated with a toy and broke her hymen in the process
A person who masturbated with a toy in front of their partner
A person who was masturbated by their partner
A person who's partner is incapable of having intercourse and therefore the partner used a toy on them
A person who has dry humped with all their clothes on
A person who broke their hymen due to medical intervention
A person who engaged in teledildonics with a partner (basically the partner controls the toy remotely. usually done online with the partner)
A person who has orgasmed from kissing and above the waist touching, fully clothed, with partner

[Stillness]

Here is the first paragraph on sexual intercourse from wikipedia:

Sexual intercourse, or coitus or copulation, is principally the insertion and thrusting of the penis, usually when erect, into the vagina for sexual pleasure, reproduction, or both. This is also known as vaginal intercourse or vaginal sex. Other forms of penetrative sexual intercourse include anal sex (penetration of the anus by the penis), oral sex (penetration of the mouth by the penis or oral penetration of the female genitalia), fingering (sexual penetration by the fingers), and penetration by use of a dildo (especially a strap-on dildo). These activities involve physical intimacy between two or more individuals and are usually used among humans solely for physical or emotional pleasure and commonly contribute to human bonding.

Notice that they involve two or more people and penetration of or with the genitals for pleasure and/or reproduction. What you're doing is clouding the issue, in my opinion. But the fact is that most of your scenarios are easily classifiable. The people by themselves, receiving medical care, or who aren't penetrating are out. The people involved in penetrative acts for pleasure or bonding with another person are engaged in sexual activity.

You can cloud the issue with anything. Is a human a real thing? How do you define humanity? Upright, social, linguistic, high intellect, tool use, two arms and legs? What if two humans have offspring with none of those traits? Are they human?

Actually, I've got a better question:

Let's say a husband and wife want to have a baby. They spend hours and hours thrusting their genitals into each other almost daily for two months. They succeed and the wife gets pregnant and has a baby. Have they had sex? Why do you so answer?

[DreamP346]

Stillness, you didn't answer my question. You answered my question with a question which leads only to vagueness and, again, illustrating the fact that you don't have a clear definition. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. All it is is a group of opinions from various people. So once again, by using socially constructed literature to back your argument, you are only further validating my point.

[Stillness]

The people by themselves, receiving medical care, or who aren't penetrating are out. The people involved in penetrative acts for pleasure or bonding with another person are engaged in sexual activity.

This was my answer. What I didn't say was that if they've had sex, they aren't a virgin. So the person who has only masturbated hasn't had sex and so is a virgin. The person who's partner is penetrating them with toys because they can't "have intercourse" has had sex and so they aren't a virgin.

Now, please answer my question. Have the husband and wife had sex?