[DreamP346]

You said the couple had sex because of their experience. In the same way, without sexual experience, it could be said that they had not had sex. Therefore they would be virgins. It's not based on subjectivity or how anyone feels any more than what you matter-of-factly stated as having sex is.

I would also say masturbation with toys is sex, with or without a partner. Therefore, if they masturbated with toys before their first sexual act with each other, then, according to what you are saying, they didn't lose their virginity during their first sexual act with each other. Because I define sex differently then than you. What is they had phone sex. Does that count? Can you assure me everybody in the world would agree that you can lose your virginity through phone sex? It meets your criteria of sex since two people are involved and doing something sexual.

The problem with your definition is that is it not universal. You and I can't agree on when people lose their virginity. Many cultures in the world define it as first time having intercourse and when the woman loses their hymen. Do you agree with that definition? If not, then how can you claim a universal understanding of the state when you can't provide an absolute definition of the state. You consider anal sex between 2 men and sex between 2 women constituting losing virginity. Many parts of the world would disagree because to them, that is not sex. That is an abomination. So who is right? You or them? How can you claim that the definition of virginity is not influenced by culture, religion and society? that is what it means to be a social construct. You can say it exists in your world and your definition. But you cannot claim an absolute state that is free of bias from opinion. THAT makes it a social construct.

[Stillness]

There's not universal agreement on anything, so I guess everything is social.

Thanks for this interesting perspective.

[cathygirl]

Labels don't mean much to me. I cannot say when I was no longer a virgin, and it doesn't matter. My hymen was torn by the time I was 11, probably from wrecking on my bicycle, I'm not really sure when it happened. When I was 13 I let my 15 year old boyfriend perform oral sex on me, and when I was 14 I did it to him. Then I had sex with my first and only girlfriend when I was 16. I did not finally experience vaginal penetration by a penis until I was 18. Was I a virgin? I hardly think so, but at what instant in time did I cease to be a virgin? Does it matter? Why? What possible difference does that label make for anyone?

[Motorguy]

Virginity is the state of a person who has never engaged in sexual intercourse. There are cultural and religious traditions which place special value and significance on this state, predominantly towards unmarried females, associated with notions of personal purity, honor and worth.

Like chastity, the concept of virginity has traditionally involved sexual abstinence. The concept of virginity usually involves moral or religious issues and can have consequences in terms of social status and in interpersonal relationships. Although virginity has social implications and had significant legal implications in some societies in the past, it has no legal consequences in most societies today.

The term virgin originally only referred to sexually inexperienced women, but has evolved to encompass a range of definitions, as found in traditional, modern, and ethical concepts. Heterosexual individuals may or may not consider loss of virginity to occur only through penile-vaginal penetration, while people of other sexual orientations often include oral sex, anal sex or mutual masturbation in their definitions of losing one's virginity.