[stressed]

Firstly, what you don't explain at any point (or I missed it at least) was which one occurred first: Her lack of interest in sex or her complains about porn? It's rather important, as if your sex life was normal and she noticed that you still watch porn anyway then perhaps her sex drive went downhill, what with all the other problems your relationship has and what with her becoming a mother of two within such a short time. On the other hand, if you went back to porn only because she lost her interest, then, no, it is not absurd of you to turn to porn since you have no sex. It would help if we knew which one came first though or why and when you stopped watching porn. As the way you describe it shows that this issue has come up before.

Secondly, she is ten years older than you and has had a number of failed relationships before you. This means that:

- She might feel that she needs to look as good as possible for you, because you are younger and younger women might approach you. She might feel insecure enough to want to look as young as possible, as 40 is near and many people can be insecure, especially those with partners 10+ years younger than them. She might hope that plastic surgeries and other means will make her stay younger enough so that you will want to stay with her. Encouragement from your side is important, but if she is not happy with herself there is little you can do. Hopefully counseling will make her understand that she is all you want and nothing else.

- She has become a mother of two within a very short time. Not all women can handle this role easily. She is obviously very stressed and worried about doing this right, hence calling the doctors as soon as a child has fever, spends so much time with them etc. She might feel they need her more than you do. With all this stress around I'm not surprised by her low sex drive, let alone by her being bothered by porn. As she might take it as: "I've just had two children, I don't feel attractive anymore, I'm nearly 40 years old, my husband is not even 30 yet, I do whatever I can to keep my body young with any means possible and he still wants to look at porn, so why would I want to have sex with him?". I don't know what she is thinking and this is not a healthy approach, if she does think like that, but you have to understand what she thinks and feels before you can solve your problems. Porn is the last problem in your list.

Also, I don't know how serious it was what made you punch holes through the wall, threaten suicide and divorce, but these are not reactions of a mature married man. Seriously. It only shows that you might have an anger management problem/you get very irritated when things don't go your way/ you cannot handle the stress that comes with having a family/want to make her feel bad for one reason or another. Any of those examples by themselves are more damaging to one's partner than quitting porn. Even one can be enough to cause great resentment, let alone all those performed by the same person. And these are only examples you just mentioned, as I assume there's a lot more you've done apart from those (since you added "etc.").

You both started a family without being ready for it and you are both to blame for not communicating with each other and trying to solve your problems calmly. Hopefully counseling will help you both, but if you won't start talking with each other soon then this will only get worse. I am sorry you are going through this, but you both need to take control of this marriage before you both go crazy.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Hey mrwrong.

Well, if she always ditched the men, they weren't right for her, again, ask why she decided you were?

For me, I was 36 myself... I married because I thought that he was young minded, he was also almost a Virgin having been married before for 18 months only, and nil sex after, from 31 years of age, we were the same age.

But, I was wrong... as well... As soon as we married ( no kids), as soon as we married ( controlling) I won't go into it...

But, for me, it seemed correct at the time, perhaps, I however, did have mixed feelings before the day.

I didn't get it wrong, I knew you stated "you" were the one threatening, anger, I was talking to you there

She got sick of me going by myself and "not seeing any results" expressing that she'd rather the money go towards a bigger house payment..

Well, that tells me that she's building wealth, wouldn't a woman go because they "want" badly to get the other person to see their side? Where does finance come into it?

I actually worked yesterday from 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM with a lunch break, no breakfast, and then again from ~10:30 PM to 1:00 AM after putting my son to bed, and then looked at porn for 5 minutes before attempting to masturbate before going to bed only to "get caught

I know alot of guys have stated they actually masterbate, for a stress release. That's alot of hours, sounds as if you work two jobs and also put your child to bed, whilst she studies and is a stay at home Mother... There's no equality there, whilst I appreciate off course a Mother has to stay at home with children that age, and that she is studying as well which is a great thing for future for the two of you... Doesn't she offer to make you breakfast? Make sure you have energy? Doesn't she rub your back? I mean that's alot of hours your doing.

You didn't answer either my query about ladies in porn with fake boobs verses those thoughts ever being expressed to your wife, who also has fake boobs... I think that's an important issue, it may be really the whole reason why she hates porn.

CW

[stressed]

I just read your other post, which gave me a better insight of this.

1) You claim to know what you like and what you don't like by browsing porn forums, which makes me wonder, didn't you know what you wanted before you got married to her? Hadn't she given you even the slightest of clues that she is considering having implants and plastic surgeries? Or did it all just suddenly happen after you got married?

2) You abhor implants, especially the bigger ones (I wonder if that is the kind your wife has). Have you told her that? Does she have scars from the operations that you find hard to overlook? Are you totally unattracted to her because of those operations? Your wife has something on her body that you absolutely loathe and find repulsive, so I find it very hard to believe that she doesn't notice that when you look at her. If she doesn't feel you find her attractive despite her (wrong) efforts then this situation cannot be solved. The more she tries to look attractive the more you will be repulsed by the result.

3) She is clearly very insecure about her body and you know this. You know why she hides her body or withdraws from you touching it. The problem here is that you feel rejected and she feels unattractive. Neither of you is happy with the situation. If she has noticed even 1% of what you believe about implants then she will only feel more and more insecure with time and withdraw from any kind of physical contact with you.

4) You claim you see fake boobs in trashy porn and natural boobs in 'quality' porn. If trashy porn is all about fake boobs and if your wife has fake boobs, then how on earth can she not be bothered by porn if she has realized your views about the whole porn & boobs deal?

5) You also don't seem to like her choice of clothing. In other words, whether she is naked or dressed she is just not attractive to you.

You don't sound like a man who is attracted to his wife, but more like someone who misses having a woman without implants, small breasts etc etc. anything your wife is not. You want something she is not and she never will be. Be it due to her insecurities or other issues. If you are not happy with her appearance you don't have to stay in this marriage, not if you constantly seek or imagine of something else that she will never be. You will never be happy like this and she will only continue to feel more and more insecure. This relationship seems damaging for both of you.

[mrwrong]

stressed,
Her lack of interest in sex definitely came first. I had sworn off porn use and only after feeling despair did I return to it. I even told her that I'd be ok with non-intercourse forms of sex as a substitute at times during pregnancy and after but she never took me up on that or even mentioned it. She just acts like sex doesn't exist and goes about her life.
I am quite willing to admit that my reactions were both immature and damaging. I also feel that I have come a long way in those 2.5 years and have for the most part been a different man the past 6 months. My wife agrees that I've changed a lot for the better. However, I don't believe that I alone am responsible for the harmony of our family, she needs to examine herself over the past 2.5 years just as I have and make efforts *going forward* to improve things just as I do. Hopefully our counselor can help us with that.

CW,
she decided I was the man because she thought I met all of the requirements on her list (I found it one day while going through her old files out of curiosity). Likes outdoors, strong christian (oops), wants to have kids, doesn't look at porn (oops), financially stable, etc.. Supposedly she also was in love with me. She actually has multiple lists that evolved from one ex to the next. We discussed wanting 4 children, so I guess she thought her clock was also ticking.
I thought I answered your question re fake boobs thoroughly. I've never expressed distaste for implants to her since in the overall scheme of things it isn't important to me. I've always been fond of her boobs and would let her know it quite frequently. Having a strong relationship and not feeling abandoned by my wife emotionally and sexually are far more important than any plastic surgery or lack thereof.

For clarification I'm self-employed/partner in multiple projects and work from home, my wife is not employed and graduated with a bachelor's degree in family counseling a few years before we met. She hasn't worked since our first was born.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

she decided I was the man because she thought I met all of the requirements on her list (I found it one day while going through her old files out of curiosity).

I don't like check lists... That sounds "searching, compulsive". How can you put something into several boxes, check, check.. To me it's the inner person, the love for all that that they are, not security, same beliefs, no porn.. It's simular core values, simular communication skills, equality, all that they are inside, that equals love.

christian (oops), wants to have kids, doesn't look at porn (oops)

Well If that was her check list you had to have made her believe before marriage that those things didn't exist.... You mention she found out somewhere along the line, maybe she felt you lied?

I've never expressed distaste for implants to her since in the overall scheme of things it isn't important to me.

Have to disagree... Re-read your post to SallySkelleton... You make it well known that real breasts are best

For clarification I'm self-employed/partner in multiple projects and work from home, my wife is not employed and graduated with a bachelor's degree in family counseling a few years before we met. She hasn't worked since our first was born.

Well, family counselling... mmmm... So, this is why she's heck bent on you going through counselling... A degree in that, means you understand how things work, how marriage works and she's not feeling that your working it... Perhaps, a few lies, anger, youth has alot to do with it. You were after all what, 23, 24? That's almost to me like, as I said, she felt she could guide you, she has the physcological knowledge/background you had the youth...

I appreciate your not getting it, so you look at porn.. I'm not convinced you don't see those women as "tarty"... and I'm not convinced that she doesn't know that, that you haven't in some way expressed your thoughts on boobs.. And, the fact you know of her check list and Porn was a huge issue, I feel that your stating, "well, I know you don't like it, but your not giving so I'm doing it".. A bit of a rebel..

You sound quite mature in your answers... But, marriage is about compromise and I get that she's not.. But, you have to see that sex is sex, intimacy is different, feeling like a sex object "because women in porn are" could be her reason for denying you.

CW

[mrwrong]

stressed,
1. I am extremely attracted to her (when I'm not feeling rejected) and completely satisfied with her body. This is really not an issue. Again, she had the implants years before we were married and she sprung the labioplasty on me 6 weeks before we got married and while I would have preferred she not have, it isn't a big deal. Physical appearance isn't everything and I've been very sensitive to her insecurities about her appearance.

2. That post was written in context to someone considering implants. I've seen casual pre-op photos of my wife and expressed that I thought she looked perfectly fine without implants but again, I do not find her at all unattractive because of them and have never said anything to her to that effect.

3. Whatever reasons she felt unattractive before we started having sexual problems were due to past relationships. A wife is about a lot more than cup size and posing, you are taking my comments out of context. Those comments were strictly regarding porn, "abhor" in that context meaning "click next", since there are plenty of porns stars with natural boobs. My message for Sally was "don't be insecure about small natural boobs, they can be just as attractive or more attractive than big fake boobs" only with stronger language since it seems to go in one ear and out the other with her.

4. She doesn't realize that is my view about porn. Also, again those are sweeping statements meant to deter a woman from going out and getting huge fake boobs when everyone around her is screaming "DON'T!".

5. Where on earth do you get that idea?

You've taken that post way out of context. My wife is extremely attractive and I am extremely attracted to her and I let her know it. I'll ask "well who do you want to look like" and she'll say "angelina jolie" or "michelle pfeifer" and I'll say "you're already more attractive than her!" and I'll mean it and she is (IMO). I've heard the argument too many times that "looking at porn gives you misconceptions about what a woman should look like" but I have no misconceptions. There is no single ideal and my likes and dislikes, unlike my wife's, were not formed by hollywood and playboy. Unfortunately I cannot convince her that when I met her she became my ideal and for her to have some other ideal because her ex showed her some stupid porn mag one day that she doesn't need to change anything about herself. If she would spend half of that energy being sexual instead of thinking about what porn I've looked at we'd have one less obstacle in our marriage. Btw she asked me to show her what I had been looking at one day (she was irate at the time) and I did and guess what, the women I look at in porn look strikingly similar to my wife because frankly she's the only person I've ever had sex with or even seen nude in person yet somehow I am still a filthy cheater.

[stressed]

I could be wrong, it's just that your last post and the one posted in the other thread look as if they were written by a different person. In the other post I see a man who has all kinds of advice for women not to have implants because they are just horrible (in other words), not of a man who can find anything positive in them. If I were your wife I'd be greatly hurt if I knew it was you who posted that, hence I assume that she must have some idea of your views regarding implants.

It may not be a big deal to you, but if she does know how you feel about it then this can make her extremely insecure. This is why she wanted to see what kind of porn you look at.

Like I said, I could be all wrong about all this, but when women sense that their partner dislikes a part of their body then they lose self-confidence, they feel unattractive and eventually lose interest in sex. Her being against porn is only the result of such a feeling.

It's like, if you had a penis enlargement operation and somehow you sensed that your wife preferred smaller penises, or even looked up porn with smaller penises, then you wouldn't exactly be all up for sex with her, would you? Even if it would not mean that much to her and still found you attractive, you would still feel that you may not be what she really sexually wants.

She could also be insecure about you not having had any other sexual partners before her and might wonder if you'd want to have more experiences in the future. It could basically be about anything that you can only find out through discussion.

[mrwrong]

I never professed to be a strong christian to her. I attended church with her several times and that is about it. I used to believe a lot more strongly in god than I do now, now I don't know what I believe since I have yet to see christianity benefit our marriage. Huge rabbit trail, religion is.. I told her about porn long before we were even engaged. I promised not to use it anymore and it turns out I lied though I did put forth a strong effort to keep my promise.

Apparently you can get a degree in something without really knowing that much about it these days.. And having a degree doesn't mean you practice what you know. I once had to "fix" (install) a dryer for a recent graduate with an electrical engineering degree because he had mismatched the colors when installing the cord and it was tripping their breaker when he plugged it in!

You touch on something interesting.. She once said her previous relationship didn't work because their counselor said he was not "teachable". I do believe that being "teachable" is a good trait and ironically I do not see her as being very teachable. I certainly do feel very controlled, especially regarding decisions with raising the kids. I won't deny feeling "rebellious" at times, but mostly just frustrated.

Yes, sex and intimacy can be exclusive, but I want intimacy AND sex. I've tried communicating that to her and apparently failed miserably thus far. Somehow I think her religious views and ex's play a large role in her opinions that sexual dissatisfaction is not legitimate and allow her to seemingly ignore the fact that I can love her *and* have sexual desires that cause me pain when neglected at the same time..

[CHANDLERS WISH]

My message for Sally was "don't be insecure about small natural boobs, they can be just as attractive or more attractive than big fake boobs" only with stronger language since it seems to go in one ear and out the other with her.

I can actually see that, you obviously read the whole thread to have made such a big thing to sway Sally away from it.. Even if you prefer non surgical breasts, it's evident from your comments that you loved your wife and married her knowing she had them, so you can't be against it as a whole, or else you wouldn't have done so.

4. She doesn't realize that is my view about porn

And that was the main question, to see whether that was why she has ceased sexual interactions, you've clarified that and therefore for the readers, as such, that topic has been closed.

I promised not to use it anymore and it turns out I lied though I did put forth a strong effort to keep my promise

Sometimes that's all a person can ask for is "try"... I imagine as you were a Virgin, it assisted you with knowledge at the very worst but habits can be hard to break and you need to tell her that, and that you will again "try" your not disrespecting her, it was what you did before, when you didn't have sex, your mind went back to that pattern, she should understand given her degree.

Apparently you can get a degree in something without really knowing that much about it these days.. And having a degree doesn't mean you practice what you know.

It does mean that you "got it" though or else it's impossible to pass. It depends if you then decide to use it, or be stubborn and use what you prefer instead.

She once said her previous relationship didn't work because their counselor said he was not "teachable".

Are you suggesting that she has constantly had to have councelling basically in all relationships? Is that why she did the degree? And, do you think she believes that people are either teachable or not and if not, ditch them?

Somehow I think her religious views and ex's play a large role in her opinions that sexual dissatisfaction is not legitimate

If her religious views are that of "sex is only to produce babies" then your in big trouble. She states, "he" is unteachable.. You may find that you can not change her beliefs, thought patterns about sex, she may be too set in her ways on that subject at 36 years of age....

What does she think you need to learn from Councelling that you are not learning?

[sallyskellington]

the only thing I can add and I draw from my own experience so it may not be the case for you/her.. She may view the porn as a threat. If she wants and had all this plastic surgery like I do it's cause she hates her body and views all the porn stars as looking better then her. Which I know when a person hates their body they do not want to be intimate having people see there flaws. While I can not comment on the mommy issues (I don't have or want kids) I am sure getting fat and pregnant has made her self esteem worse due to the weight gain and stretch marks that come with pregnancy. I think she may be channeling her interests into other activities because it has no bearing on how she looks or sees her body. It's the same reason I go out and buy very expensive hand bags, b/c people won't notice me and and my flaws they just see a kick handbag. So it gives me instant gratification and makes me feel better. Same with her and her landscaping and child rearing. People may say "what a beautiful yard you have, or what well behaved children you have" all making her feel better while it has nothing to do bout how her body looks. Like I said I am basing this on my experiences but I think until she feels attractive again (in her own eyes) she will refuse to be intimate.