[Obelisk]

For someone that is trying to be a perfectionist on this and has adopted ladder theory, it's odd that you make this huge mistake. It's not even anatomically equivalent, let alone culturally or even stereotypically.

The stereotype is of the rich/famous/powerful old man going for the shapely young women. In that case the equivalent to the female body would be money, fame, and power. Culturally that holds. Things are changing as women become more wealthy and empowered in their own right, but it's not the penis that they're going for. It's abs or a handsome face or a certain body type, just keeping it to the physical. But they're also looking for a man who has the emotional make-up that they want. They don't have to put up with a brute anymore because he provides.

The female equivalent to the male genitals is the female genitals. They care about as much as we do. Not much. Of course, there are some people that have a fetish for really tight vaginas, really loose ones, long labia, or a preference for short neat ones. Their preferences aren't irrelevant because they're in the minority, but they are in the minority. Unless a woman has one of those men and lacks the corresponding feature OR her privates are causing a functional problem, she doesn't really need to worry even if her man may have a slight preference. It just does not matter enough. It's the same with penises.

And lizzard brought up such a good point about average and small breasts. You penis people are really ignoring the power of small and average. A lot of the women keep telling you and you keep ignoring it. You mentioned C and D cups as large breasts, but those are considered average nowadays. The really large ones do look great at times if they're presented well, but not always. What they do best is get attention. Once you get them out of the bra, they don't hold up as well. I can tell you for a fact that the most attractive ones I've had the pleasure with were average size. The largest ones were the most unattractive. I loved them all because I love breasts and women. I could have found a place in my life for any of them and been happy if the character would have lined up. It's the same with women. We're not all that different.

Ok I really did want to be done with this topic.

Instead of trying to answer individually I think I will just give you what I believe now in a general sense.

Let's start with the Ladder Theory.

First of all I believe it works at a subconscious level in all of us. No man ever sits there reasoning "hmm, I think that shapely woman is going to get me aroused". No, it simply happens. Just like a woman does not reason why a muscular man get her aroused.

From an evolutionary point of view (and I understand that these are all theories, and not really 100% proven, but it's what we have for now), the male is supposed to protect the female, and reproduce with her. So our instincts seek qualities in the female that will work toward those goals, and that's basically how hot she is, and how quickly do we believe we can get her in the sack (again, this is instinctive).

A woman's instinctive process is more along the lines of balancing "can he protect? can he provide?". This is why a woman will assess a man's looks and ability to provide, and this is why looks + power/money matter more to a woman than it does to a man.

That's all the ladder theory is about man. That's it.

As far as breast size, well, I consider c and d cups on the larger side. a and b cups on the smaller side. I don't believe men that say they prefer smaller. I think it's a conditioned response because we get clobbered by society if we say otherwise, because we're being "shallow".

With that said, if a woman is hot and has only b cups, or if the same woman had d cups, it would hardly be a deal breaker for me. I care, but not that much. I've experienced going from c to b, and yes there was a difference for me. I missed the larger size a little bit. Not enough to matter much, but the loss was there.

So with women and penis size, I think most would prefer larger (we're not talking about 10" here, but let's say bigger that 6"). This of course depends on their own size and what they know is comfortable and uncomfortable.

I imagine, for most, that if they ended up with a guy smaller than what they find ideal, it would probably not be a "huge" loss, but there would be a loss.

I don't care about things that compensate for it. Anybody can fall in love with anyone else, so to me that means nothing. Facts is what I deal with.

So for me the facts are as follows:

Putting scientific studies together, added to what women with a lot of sexual experience are saying (swingers for example), it seems that 60% of men fall within "average" (between 5" and 6"). Maybe around 20% of men are 7" or larger (out of that, maybe 10% are really large, over 8"). Another 20% are smaller than average (under 5")

So assuming that a woman has had 10 partners, she's likely to have had 1 partner with 8" and one or two with 4" (assuming a mathematically even split in percentages).

So now we have to take into account what the woman's ideal size for her is. I have no data on this, except that it does seem that asian women tend to be smaller, and black women do tend to be bigger.

So an asian woman might find anything larger than 6" uncomfortable. For her, 4" might be ideal. A black woman might find 8" ideal, and anything less than 6" lacking.

I'm not trying to single out races btw, but it's clear that evolution did fit races for their purpose (making asian men smaller for example, but with matching small asian women, etc)

Height also is a big factor. A short woman is twice as likely to be smaller down there also (there's always exceptions of course).


Does any of this matter? I think it does. Would a guy who has 8" like to end up with a woman who can only fit 5" inside her? Sex will always be uncomfortable for both of them. What about the reverse. What if a woman likes 8" but her man only has 4"

I know nobody wants to talk about this, because "love conquers all", but why not deal with it as best as possible beforehand?

[rcoreyus]

I think the problem is that you have made up your mind and don't believe what other people are saying.

I prefer women with average to smaller breasts. This is not forced on me by society, it is not being politically correct. It is what I prefer. Many other men feel the same, though of course many prefer larger breasts. There is no way I can make you believe me. You don't know me so you don't have any way to know that I don't have to settle - I am with a women I love (who happens to have small breasts) because she is the person that I most wanted to be with, not because I couldn't get someone else.

The ladder theory does not apply to me. I find a variety of body types attractive, there isn't a single ideal. Many women do not prefer muscles - look at some of the actors who are famous for being attractive (the twilight guy, or the guy who plays Legolas - they are not muscular). Again some women like muscles, but many don't.

I am not looking for a woman I can get in the sack. If I was a I'd drop a thousand or so on a call girl and have big-breasted woman who would have sex with me whenever I wanted. Surely that would be easier than going through a romantic relationship if sex was all I wanted.


I think that as long as you think in terms of you "ladder" you are going to be unhappy. You will always feel like you are "settling" because there will always be someone higher on the ladder. Your partner will always sense that you are with them because they were the best you could get, not what you wanted.

If you were mathematically inclined I'd say that attractiveness is not a scalar quantity, It is a multi-dimensional vector space without a metric. Translating, it is possible to have two women who look different but where you cannot say which one is more beautiful. Same way that you can have two foods that are delicious, but you can't say which tastes better - compare a dark chocolate and a steak for example (if you like both).

Ok I really did want to be done with this topic.

Instead of trying to answer individually I think I will just give you what I believe now in a general sense.

Let's start with the Ladder Theory.

First of all I believe it works at a subconscious level in all of us. No man ever sits there reasoning "hmm, I think that shapely woman is going to get me aroused". No, it simply happens. Just like a woman does not reason why a muscular man get her aroused.

From an evolutionary point of view (and I understand that these are all theories, and not really 100% proven, but it's what we have for now), the male is supposed to protect the female, and reproduce with her. So our instincts seek qualities in the female that will work toward those goals, and that's basically how hot she is, and how quickly do we believe we can get her in the sack (again, this is instinctive).

A woman's instinctive process is more along the lines of balancing "can he protect? can he provide?". This is why a woman will assess a man's looks and ability to provide, and this is why looks + power/money matter more to a woman than it does to a man.

That's all the ladder theory is about man. That's it.

As far as breast size, well, I consider c and d cups on the larger side. a and b cups on the smaller side. I don't believe men that say they prefer smaller. I think it's a conditioned response because we get clobbered by society if we say otherwise, because we're being "shallow".

With that said, if a woman is hot and has only b cups, or if the same woman had d cups, it would hardly be a deal breaker for me. I care, but not that much. I've experienced going from c to b, and yes there was a difference for me. I missed the larger size a little bit. Not enough to matter much, but the loss was there.

So with women and penis size, I think most would prefer larger (we're not talking about 10" here, but let's say bigger that 6"). This of course depends on their own size and what they know is comfortable and uncomfortable.

I imagine, for most, that if they ended up with a guy smaller than what they find ideal, it would probably not be a "huge" loss, but there would be a loss.

I don't care about things that compensate for it. Anybody can fall in love with anyone else, so to me that means nothing. Facts is what I deal with.

So for me the facts are as follows:

Putting scientific studies together, added to what women with a lot of sexual experience are saying (swingers for example), it seems that 60% of men fall within "average" (between 5" and 6"). Maybe around 20% of men are 7" or larger (out of that, maybe 10% are really large, over 8"). Another 20% are smaller than average (under 5")

So assuming that a woman has had 10 partners, she's likely to have had 1 partner with 8" and one or two with 4" (assuming a mathematically even split in percentages).

So now we have to take into account what the woman's ideal size for her is. I have no data on this, except that it does seem that asian women tend to be smaller, and black women do tend to be bigger.

So an asian woman might find anything larger than 6" uncomfortable. For her, 4" might be ideal. A black woman might find 8" ideal, and anything less than 6" lacking.

I'm not trying to single out races btw, but it's clear that evolution did fit races for their purpose (making asian men smaller for example, but with matching small asian women, etc)

Height also is a big factor. A short woman is twice as likely to be smaller down there also (there's always exceptions of course).


Does any of this matter? I think it does. Would a guy who has 8" like to end up with a woman who can only fit 5" inside her? Sex will always be uncomfortable for both of them. What about the reverse. What if a woman likes 8" but her man only has 4"

I know nobody wants to talk about this, because "love conquers all", but why not deal with it as best as possible beforehand?

[Obelisk]

If you were mathematically inclined I'd say that attractiveness is not a scalar quantity, It is a multi-dimensional vector space without a metric.

I have to admit that was a creative use of linear algebraic math. Even if we're talking about a multi-dimensional space where vectors are totally random, there are still some metrics involved in how those vectors begin, and what direction they follow. But that's my opinion. I do think the metrics can disappear once "love" kicks in. I understand that.

I think the problem is that you have made up your mind and don't believe what other people are saying.

Well there's a reason why porn is so popular with men. The women in porn are usually in very good shape and busty. There is a lot of "niche" stuff but we're getting into more fetish related stuff, like foot fetishes, or really small breasts fetishes, or even chubby chaser fetishes. These are usually smaller groups.

There's a reason why guys tend to me more attracted to a fit woman than to an overweight woman. There's a reason why in an environment where there's a lot of women with bikinis, usually the bustier women are the ones men pay attention to first.

On the women's side, there's a reason why they are immediately attracted to taller guys. There's a reason they are attracted to buffer guys. There's a reason they are attracted to guys who look like they got cash (good, hip clothing, select pieces of jewelry, etc etc).

So no, the evidence contradicts what you are saying.

[lissy73]

[QUOTE=Obelisk;359087]On the women's side, there's a reason why they are immediately attracted to taller guys. There's a reason they are attracted to buffer guys. There's a reason they are attracted to guys who look like they got cash (good, hip clothing, select pieces of jewelry, etc etc).QUOTE]

Not everyone is as superficial as that. There are women and men that aren't attracted to looks at all, rather they are attracted to the personality of the person. I chose to be with my partner not because of what he looked like, it was because of the person he is and how he makes me happy.

I feel a bit for you Obelisk, you cannot seem to get your head around that you are only concentrating on the physical aspects of a person. At the end of the day being happy is the most important thing, hopefully you will come to realise that everything else isn't important, and you yourself will one day find true happiness.

[somerandomguy]

I do understand that one should be looking for the right person to be with and to love; not the right penis or vagina. Having said that, one of my greatest fears is that this right person I end up with (in my case, a woman), will turn around and reject me after, say, 15 years of marriage and 2-4 children. I wrote of a similar case in one of my previous posts on my old thread.

I have read of other similar cases. In one, the wife heard from a female colleague of hers about a well-hung guy at their office. That female colleague had apparently slept with this guy outside of her marriage. This wife then asked her husband if she could be allowed to do the same (sleep with the guy at the office). Apparently, her husband was around 7 inches but this guy was still larger, according to the female colleague. There was "nothing wrong" with the frequency of their sex life. It was just that her husband did not last as long as he used to. Btw, this wife did not approve of her female colleagues behavior; she too should have asked her husband for permission to sleep with this guy at the office (!).

What was wrong with these relationships? Was the love these people shared not deep or real/genuine enough? Or, were these women only ready to love/accept their husbands as long as it fitted their needs?

[Annapol]

Just wanna weigh in here (no pun intended)...I scanned through several of the replies and didn't see one thing addressed that occurred to me. What about when small penis size is more of an issue to the guy, and his feeling of not being very "virile" because of that becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy (again, no pun intended)?

I dated a guy who was very cool in many ways, but we never had sex very often because he claimed he just didn't feel the urge that often. He even said himself he thought it might have to do with penis size. I was like, but it feels great to me. I just wanted to "be" with him more often and maybe more passionately.

He never asked me directly how he ranked or whatever (for the record, it was kinda small), and I always said how nicely shaped it was or any number of other cool things about it. But, it's like he couldn't deal with not being hung like Seabiscuit, so...

I guess ultimately it's about confidence and getting over yourself and the ability to think of how much pleasure you're going to share with each other than worrying about size and shape and other stuff.

[Obelisk]

Just wanna weigh in here (no pun intended)...I scanned through several of the replies and didn't see one thing addressed that occurred to me. What about when small penis size is more of an issue to the guy, and his feeling of not being very "virile" because of that becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy (again, no pun intended)?

I dated a guy who was very cool in many ways, but we never had sex very often because he claimed he just didn't feel the urge that often. He even said himself he thought it might have to do with penis size. I was like, but it feels great to me. I just wanted to "be" with him more often and maybe more passionately.

He never asked me directly how he ranked or whatever (for the record, it was kinda small), and I always said how nicely shaped it was or any number of other cool things about it. But, it's like he couldn't deal with not being hung like Seabiscuit, so...

I guess ultimately it's about confidence and getting over yourself and the ability to think of how much pleasure you're going to share with each other than worrying about size and shape and other stuff.

So he did in fact, have reason to feel as he did. You thought he was small. So him having confidence would have negated that? We don't even know what, in this case, "small" is?

I still don't know what's considered "small"? Less than 5" less than 4"?

[somerandomguy]

Just wanna weigh in here (no pun intended)...I scanned through several of the replies and didn't see one thing addressed that occurred to me. What about when small penis size is more of an issue to the guy, and his feeling of not being very "virile" because of that becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy (again, no pun intended)?

I dated a guy who was very cool in many ways, but we never had sex very often because he claimed he just didn't feel the urge that often. He even said himself he thought it might have to do with penis size. I was like, but it feels great to me. I just wanted to "be" with him more often and maybe more passionately.

He never asked me directly how he ranked or whatever (for the record, it was kinda small), and I always said how nicely shaped it was or any number of other cool things about it. But, it's like he couldn't deal with not being hung like Seabiscuit, so...

I guess ultimately it's about confidence and getting over yourself and the ability to think of how much pleasure you're going to share with each other than worrying about size and shape and other stuff.

You admit to his penis being kinda small. Was that a bad thing (by the way you phrased it, it does not seem that small penises is your default preference)? You also admit to it feeling good. Would it have felt better if it was (acceptably) bigger? Also, like Obelisk, I am wondering how small, "small" really is.

[lizzardb63]

I dated a guy who was very cool in many ways, but we never had sex very often because he claimed he just didn't feel the urge that often. He even said himself he thought it might have to do with penis size. I was like, but it feels great to me. I just wanted to "be" with him more often and maybe more passionately.

She never said being small was a bad thing. She told him it feels great, which it must have, otherwise why would she want to do it more often?

[Obelisk]

I prefer women with average to smaller breasts. This is not forced on me by society, it is not being politically correct. It is what I prefer. Many other men feel the same, though of course many prefer larger breasts. There is no way I can make you believe me. You don't know me so you don't have any way to know that I don't have to settle - I am with a women I love (who happens to have small breasts) because she is the person that I most wanted to be with, not because I couldn't get someone else.

This is something you reasoned out, and overrode your instincts.

What would happen if your woman wanted to get implants? What if she did it without you knowing, and she shows up with bigger breasts all of a sudden. Would it take away from your attraction to her?

I am not looking for a woman I can get in the sack.

You haven't understood anything about what I've been saying. I'm not looking for a woman to get in the sack either. But this is our higher reasoning overriding our instincts when we see a beautiful woman. Instinctively we would hop in bed with her that very moment. But our higher brain functions kick in and add other requirements.

Not everyone is as superficial as that. There are women and men that aren't attracted to looks at all, rather they are attracted to the personality of the person. I chose to be with my partner not because of what he looked like, it was because of the person he is and how he makes me happy.

I feel a bit for you Obelisk, you cannot seem to get your head around that you are only concentrating on the physical aspects of a person. At the end of the day being happy is the most important thing, hopefully you will come to realise that everything else isn't important, and you yourself will one day find true happiness.

People that aren't superficial like that usually don't have many bargaining chips themselves.

I haven't seen very many incredibly hot women with really overweight ugly looking guys. Even so, I'm sure those guys have some kind of ace up their sleeve. Maybe they are loaded (or give a really good appearance of being loaded). Maybe they spend a lot on the woman. I know that usually makes women overlook any physical setbacks in the guy. Heck maybe they are even sugar daddies. I've seen this phenomenon explode recently.

I do understand that one should be looking for the right person to be with and to love; not the right penis or vagina. Having said that, one of my greatest fears is that this right person I end up with (in my case, a woman), will turn around and reject me after, say, 15 years of marriage and 2-4 children. I wrote of a similar case in one of my

I think there's a huge chance of that happening no matter how good you look or how big your penis is man.

I see this all the time. I think it all depends on the woman, if she is willing to ignore the instincts of the ladder theory. Also if the man was able to give her what she needed (and not just looks or penis size mind you). I know a lot of married men become boring. They come home tired, make zero effort to make their woman feel sexy and loved, and just stick it in for 2mins, get off and fall asleep. I don't blame women in this situation if some other Don Juan shows up and swoops her off her feet.

The other problem is the woman getting bored of you no matter what you do. I've seen both sides. Not really much to do now than hope you can be a good guy and can find a good woman.

I have read of other similar cases. In one, the wife heard from a female colleague of hers about a well-hung guy at their office. That female colleague had apparently slept with this guy outside of her marriage.

This I agree with. Just look at that other thread "Has anyone been with a black guy?". I find it funny how black men are stereotyped as being "bad ***" "really good in bed" and "huge". I'd had a chance to chat with some on other forums, and they admit that they mostly fall within the average 4"-6" range. Statistically they might be a bit bigger than average, but the perception is hurting them. Women seek them out believing they will get some "Alpha dude with a huge ****" and are really disappointed to find out most are just average like the rest of us.

Anyway, I think every woman wants to know what large feels like if they haven't had it. The ones that have probably enjoyed it unless it was too large for them. As men I don't think there's much we can do. That's a war that we have already lost.

You admit to his penis being kinda small. Was that a bad thing (by the way you phrased it, it does not seem that small penises is your default preference)?

To me that's what it sounded like also. Again, we have no idea what "small" was in that case. Maybe he was 3"? 4"?

She never said being small was a bad thing. She told him it feels great, which it must have, otherwise why would she want to do it more often?

Fine let's use you as an example. It sounds like when you had a guy with 7" that was the right size for you. When you had your man with 9 1/2" you always have to take extra steps to make it comfortable for you and your man.

I know there's women that could not fit that large no matter what they tried. The guy might not be able to get 2 or 3" that would always stick out.

So you obviously have a larger canal than average. We haven't factored in your height and ethnic background. I doubt you are asian for example. I doubt you are 5'1

I could be wrong. So I know you have a loving husband and I'm happy for you. Let's say another woman exactly like you with a guy who is the same size but treats her bad. She dumps the guy. Along comes a guy with 5" and treats her great.

There was one thread somewhere here, a girl was freaking out because her previous man was 9" (not confirmed) and the new guy was 5" (also not confirmed) and she was worried she wouldn't feel him.

Again, words mean nothing when I see actions contradicting them.