[rcoreyus]

Genesis 38:9-10 (not 39:9-10) I've seen as indicating gods anger that onan refused to impregnate his brother's wife, not masturbation itself. Of course if you start using the old testament as a guide to modern sexual relationships you will quickly get into a heap of trouble....

[Guest]

rcoreyus,

I didn't. I responded to Obellisk's post.

Genesis is in fact about God's condemnation of wasting seed (masturbation). But you don't have to believe me. I'm sure you can find edification on the Web or from your pastor, priest, etc.

If you're a Christian, the Old & New Testaments are in fact guides of human behavior and conduct. We cannot pick & choose which verses by which we'll abide. They are God's word. They're as applicable today as when God gave his words to Moses and when Jesus gave his words to man. I am not preaching. You're free do believe what you want to believe.

[Stillness]

That scripture has a husband and wife having sex. You might check on what "when he went in to his brother’s wife" means biblically. It wasn't to chat and have tea. See some other translations that say: "when he did have relations with his brother’s wife"; "whenever he had intercourse with his brother’s wife"; "whenever he slept with his brother’s wife"; etc.

Here's why he did it: It was the husband's (Onan) deceased brother's wife (Tamar) before his. The bother was the firstborn and so would've gotten a larger inheritance, as was the custom. Upon his death, that right fell to Onan. But, by marrying the dead firstborn's childless widow, a tradition called brother-in-law or levirate marriage, the offspring from her would have the deceased's name and inheritance thereby continuing his family line and protecting his widow. This also meant that the right of firstborn would not go to Onan, but to the house of his son with Tamar.

It was for that reason that he disobeyed his father and disrespected their marriage traditions and his wife. That was why Jehovah executed him. It had nothing to do with masturbation. If one would apply it to prohibit a sexual act, it would best be coitus interruptus. But that would still be a misapplication.

The tradition was later codified in the Mosaic Law. See Deuteronomy 25:5, 6.[/WH Bible lesson for the day]

Also, a significant percentage of the population doesn't masturbate. There have been some studies done on it and there's even a thread floating around here somewhere about it. I think it's just one of those cases where if you do certain things, you assume everyone else does. (Not that it matters much how many people do a thing if it makes someone feel guilty).

[Stillness]

Of course if you start using the old testament as a guide to modern sexual relationships you will quickly get into a heap of trouble....

Like what kind of trouble? The principles are good as far as I know.

[Guest]

Stillness,

This was taken from a Catholic Website:

Straight Talk About The
Catholic Teaching on Masturbation

The full Catholic teaching on masturbation seems to be a secret to most people.

It is a challenging teaching.

But because this teaching calls us to live in a fully human way, it's good news!

"Is masturbation wrong?"

Yes. The Catholic teaching on masturbation says that masturbation is always morally wrong.

Sex is intended to be both an expression of love for your spouse, and a beautiful means of procreation.

Sex is so special, powerful, and valuable that it is properly used only within marriage. If you're not married, you should abstain from sexual activity.

I know: this is all very counter-cultural.

The truth sometimes is!

Sex is the ultimate gift husbands and wives can give: a total gift of self, body and soul. Sex is how you fulfill your wedding vows to love totally, freely, and completely. As long as you both shall live. The secret of life is hidden in that intimate sharing.

The Catholic teaching on masturbation says that masturbation denies every aspect of that promise of sex — of that promise of your vows!

Masturbation is:

Focused on yourself
A withholding from your spouse
A statement that sex is only about pleasure — your own pleasure
Inherently sterile
Often accompanied by "adultery in your heart" through pornography and fantasy

Catholics don't condemn masturbation just because of some lofty idea of what the natural purpose of sex is. We speak the truth about the harm it does to people.

That is the true reason for the Catholic teaching on masturbation: it denies the meaning of sex. It makes you less than fully human.

"But everyone else says
Masturbation is healthy!"

Yes, they do.

The world has a way of saying that a lot of disordered things are "good".

Masturbation is radically self-centered, and radically un-Christian. That's why the Catholic teaching on masturbation says it's wrong. It turns us and our sexuality away from God and toward ourselves by:

Training our sexuality in the habit of self-indulgence, not self-giving
Divorcing the pleasure of orgasm from union with the "other", your spouse
Turning away from the risks of loving another
Refusing fertility & the full responsibility of sex

I know — many educators and health professionals seem to be having a love affair with self-centered, self-indulgent sexuality. Why that is, I don't know.

They're wrong. They're not telling you the truth about sex, about yourself, or about life.

You and your sexuality are worth more than you can imagine.

The Catholic teaching on masturbation is centered on a virtue called chastity. It means giving sexuality its proper place in our lives. Not snuffing it out, but not giving it free reign. A proper place. Chastity is one of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. (See Catechism, 2337 - 2359)

The deep truth of the Catholic teaching on masturbation is confirmed by the enormous damage this so-called "private" act causes in people's lives and marriages. Large numbers of men and women are starting to name their habit of masturbation for what it is: sexual addiction.

If we tell our teens that masturbation is normal and healthy, we're setting them up with a habit that can yield a lifetime of difficulty. We're telling them that self-indulgence and lack of self-control are positive things. This cannot form a strong foundation for mature, loving sexuality.

How is that either loving or healthy?

Freedom & responsibility

This talk of habit raises an important point: when is masturbation a sin? And how bad a sin is it?

The Catholic teaching on masturbation says that masturbation is a grave sin, what we call a mortal sin, by which we reject God's offer of life.

However, Catholic morality also acknowledges that the force of habit can reduce or even eliminate our responsibility for our actions.

We have to freely consent in order to be fully responsible.
If a habit makes something less than a free choice, it also reduces our responsibility for our actions.

This does not give us free reign if we just call something a habit! Sinful actions still harm us greatly, even if we may not be fully charged with the guilt of committing them.

We have a responsibility to seek help and diligently strive to overcome our habits.

The Lord is patient & merciful. He desperately wants to free us from the slavery of sin. But we have to do our part, too.

If you think you're trapped in the habit of masturbation or one of its close cousins (pornography, infidelity, prostitution, etc.), seek the competent help of a priest who supports the Church's sexual morality, and specifically the Catholic teaching on masturbation. (Don't be shy! They've heard it all before. Sadly, it's quite common.)

"Does the Catholic teaching on masturbation say we should repress our sexuality?"

There's a difference between repression and self-control.

Repression means to "stuff" those feelings down when they arise, denying them and wishing they weren't there.

Repression doesn't work. Many people try this route and fail.

Self-control is different. You don't deny the reality of your sexual drive, but seek to control it according to your will. That's called being free! If you're a slave to your urges (sexual or otherwise), you're not free.

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another."

(Gal 5:13)

The key to this is to redeem our sexuality, not to repress it. Christopher West makes this point about the Catholic teaching on masturbation in Good News About Sex and Marriage:

When sexual feelings, desires, and temptations present themselves, as they inevitably do, instead of trying to ignore them or "stuff" them by pushing them down and under, we need to bring them up and out. Not up and out in the sense of indulging them, but up and out and into the hands of Christ our Redeemer. You might simply say a prayer such as this:

Lord Jesus, I give you my sexual desires. Please undo in me what sin has done so that I might know freedom in this area and experience sexual desire as you intend. Amen.

The more we invite Christ into our passions and desires and allow him to purify them, the more we find we're able to exercise proper control of them. And we begin more and more to experience our sexuality, not as the desire for selfish gratification but as the desire to give ourselves away in imitation of Christ. This is what redemption is all about.

(Good News About Sex and Marriage, p.81)

The Catholic teaching on masturbation reminds us that we need to redeem our self-centered, disordered desires.

It's a matter of bringing our disorders to Christ, naming them for what they are, and letting Christ heal us. We experience that healing as the gradual increase of self-control.

It is possible.

You're worth far too much to live according to a lie about yourself. For your freedom was bought at a great price: the price of the blood of Christ.

So go on: Let yourself be redeemed. Live in the "glorious freedom of the children of God" (Rom 8:21).

Alleluia!

[Obelisk]

Genesis 38:9 & 10

9 Onan knew that the [e]offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he [f]wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give [g]offspring to his brother. 10 But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also.

You're free to believe whatever you want. However, it might be prudent to consult with your pastor, priest, etc., before thinking what you believe is true.

Yeah ok I knew the Onan passage would be the one you would eventually bring up.

Why don't we look at it in context? starting from verse 8:

Then Judah said to Onan, "Sleep with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother."

I'm sure you know that back then the only way for a widow to survive old age was for her to have a son to provide for her. It was her brother's duty to ensure she would have that security.

But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother.

Yes, this is clearly about masturbation

Sarcasm aside, it's clear from the text that he was pulling out, and not masturbating. Anyway I even went to look it up in my Septuagint. The Greek, roughly translated says something like "And he did not give his seed to her when he entered her, but gave it instead to the earth"

I don't see any Greek words that say anything about wasted. I supposed the translators of the KJV figured that's what it was and translated it that way.

What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death also.

So the sin was "he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother.. He was happily having sex with the woman, but would not give her what she needed, a child to take care of her in old age.

So where is the masturbation stuff in this story?

We cannot pick & choose which verses by which we'll abide. They are God's word.

Everyone picks and chooses. The most devout Christians will pick and choose based on what their doctrine teaches them (not necessarily on purpose)

Sex is the ultimate gift husbands and wives can give: a total gift of self, body and soul. Sex is how you fulfill your wedding vows to love totally, freely, and completely. As long as you both shall live. The secret of life is hidden in that intimate sharing.

Sex is a way to force human beings to procreate. Nothing less, nothing more. If it was a gift, there wouldn't be the risk of pregnancy every time you do it.

[Guest]

Stillness,

As far as determining what percentage of our population masturbates, it would depend upon whose research you're relying. Such research is problematic due to controlling variables and methodology. Research subjects are often not truthful about matters that they consider confidential thus resulting in skewed data. For instance, years ago research on infidelity extrapolated to the general population the findings of its research sample. However, the data was found to be flawed because especially women are deceitful when asked about infidelity.

Based upon my exposure to women, most if not all masturbate. However, this is merely anecdotal & not scientific. But my guess would be that most women do masturbate. Again, anecdotal, most men masturbate. I have been with women who have masturbated in front of me. But I could not declare knowledge from my sample population, especially considering that women who have done so also loved sex.

My direct experience with social science research has left me suspicious of it. For instance, nearly all Americans, when queried, will opine that violent felons should be prevented from owning guns. Those with ulterior motives will take that info and attempt to make an intellectual inference that nearly all Americans favor gun control, which is non sequitur based upon flawed and agenda-driven methodology.

This has become a gross deviation of the OP's post. In my opinion, he's normal. But that's merely my opinion. Mileage will vary.

[Guest]

Obelisk,

Your being a Biblical expert and all, you should have known about this often-cited verse. Moreover, Joseph was not mentioned in it.

Read my post from a Catholic Website. Its take on it is opposite of yours.

I do not want to engage in Bible banter with you. It is not the topic of this thread.

Obelisk, I'm good with whatever you choose to believe.

[Obelisk]

This has become a gross deviation of the OP's post. In my opinion, he's normal. But that's merely my opinion. Mileage will vary.

It's not a deviation. The OP is afraid that God will send him to hell for masturbating because he's been told (by people like you) that it's a sin.

What do you know of sin? Dude I've been reading the Bible (in Greek to boot) for the past 10 years. I think it's safe to say I understand it better than anyone else that's not a scholar.

[Guest]

Obelisk,

Only humans and dolphins have sex for only pleasure except when procreating, and even then pleasure is attached.