[MiniVanMan]

You still just made a huge long post about how she lost interest in sex and you didn't, and that's the cause of the problem. (still, all about sex)

Sorry it was so long. I felt I had to explain it in detail to make my point. I can try to be more concise if that will help.

The two of you lost the emotional connection that she needs in a relationship.

But that's not what she and all those other people are telling me. They're saying the emotional connection was still there early on. It's just that she didn't want sex anymore. She actually said to me 'It's not that I loved you any less than before, it's that I just didn't want to have sex that often'. So what was the problem? She and my therapists say that there was no problem. I guess the only issue was that I didn't change along with her. I know I’m hung up on the issue of why this started in the first place. I believe you’re all telling me to let that go. It’s still painful after all these years. This is what therapists are for.

Until you can recognize the root of the problem and stop fixating on the whole sex thing, no progress will be made in your relationship at all. It's not really fair to sit and expect your wife to change and put all this effort in (and hope of it getting better) if you're not willing to give up on the whole sex thing. It's not the problem, it's a symptom of and huge problem in your relationship. Your wife has communicated that to you and there are pages of posts in this thread of everyone repeating it and you choose to ignore it and fixate on sex.

I'm not ignoring it. I hear what you all are saying. Really I do. I’m listening. I’m just still trying to work it out. It’s a struggle for me.

I’m beginning to realize that there are two issues here. One is that I feel hurt and betrayed by our early history when sex fell off the radar because the novelty wore off for her but not for me, and I can’t get over it. The other is the current problem, in which she needs emotional intimacy and is not getting it, and because of that our sex life is suffering (let’s forget about the masturbation thing for now).

The focus is on sex because that's what’s important to me. I understand that she has a different view of this. I also understand that her problem is also our problem. I get that. But like any issue in a marriage, there are two points of view and they're equally valid. I value sex. It’s what brings me closer to emotional intimacy. Emotional intimacy is what she needs to have sex. That’s what she values. And although I appreciate your opinion and that you're trying to help, it's not anyone's place to try to convince me what I should value and what I shouldn't. (Jeez, I hope I don't start a flame war saying that. I'm not trying to be harsh. Just trying to stand up for myself).

So the emotional connection is not there, but I've been working on that in the last few days specifically in response to the advice you all have given me. I've been more engaged in our conversations, making her feel that I’m genuinely interested in what we’re talking about. I offered to make her breakfast Sunday morning, which I've never done before, and she seemed to really appreciate that. Just last night out of the blue I offered to help with some of her volunteer work she's been doing, and I spent much of the evening on it. Guess what? She's been more attentive to me physically. Ha! The lights come on!

I think this is the compromise you’ve all been telling me we need to do. It sounds silly, but help me understand this better. Has it really worked for you? Do you really want your spouse to do something for you that isn’t something he or she actually wants to do? In my wife’s case of the volunteer work, is it that she valued that I was making the attempt more than she valued the work itself? For me, having my wife make that kind of effort in the bedroom on the surface sounds great. In reality, the whole time I’ll know she’s just doing it to make me happy, not that she’s doing it because she wants to, and I find that sort of forced, I guess. Like I’m not attractive.

Can it last? Can we continue like this until we both are happy on an ongoing basis? You’d probably tell me that if we genuinely want it to work we will put in the effort.

[StillLearnin]

Here's my take on it. I have learned a lot about relationships the past couple of years going through something similar as you (similar as in sexual issues being addressed and worked on). I wanted the same thing as you, for her to WANT to make love to me, have hot sex with me, as much as I wanted it. But she's just not wired that way. So what I learned was that the times she is there for me, which is a LOT more now than ever (it's night and day, I tell you), she's not always going to be in the same mood as I am. And when she does have sex with me, when I know she's not in that mood, she is there for me because she LOVES me. I've read several books that said that this is an act of love, a "gift" if you will, to me. I've learned to accept the gift from her and not have such high expectations about her matching my drive.

Here's another interesting thing that has happened that shows how much our sexual relationship has improved. Before all of this we would have to use lubricant about half the time because she wasn't that wet. But since we have worked on our issues, even when she isn't in the same mood as me (the "gift"), she is wet now. She's learned to relax and how to enjoy sex, and our intimate times together. She now is saying that our relationship is stronger than it ever has been because of the increased physical time we have together now. We take more showers (more in the past 6 months than in the past 20 years of our marriage), we lay around naked more, we are just enjoying the physical touch of each other more.

If you can work it out with your wife, it is so worth it. But it won't happen overnight. Just be patient. Sounds like you are on the right track. Do things for her because you want to do them for her, not because you want something in return (sex).

(But, in my past experience, I was doing so much for her she was totally satisfied, but she did nothing in return to meet my needs, didn't talk to me in my love language. that built up a lot of resentment from me to her. So you can only do so much of that then realize that you aren't getting anywhere as far as your needs being met. When you reach that point keep doing them, but communicate your frustrations rather than bottling them up and letting them fester, which causes resentment.)

[MiniVanMan]

And when she does have sex with me, when I know she's not in that mood, she is there for me because she LOVES me. I've read several books that said that this is an act of love, a "gift" if you will, to me. I've learned to accept the gift from her and not have such high expectations about her matching my drive.

I'll try to see it that way. I wasn't trying to imply that the only reason I did these things for my wife was to get laid. It actually felt good to be more caring than I've been in, well, I don't know how long.

(...communicate your frustrations rather than bottling them up and letting them fester, which causes resentment.)

It sure does. We've recently agreed that we would tell each other what our needs are rather than fruitlessly waiting for the other to figure it out. Both of us were used to bottling it up and moping about. I hope we can keep this a permanent part of our relationship. It's going to be difficult at first.

Thanks for the helpful comments.

[LanaBear]

We've recently agreed that we would tell each other what our needs are rather than fruitlessly waiting for the other to figure it out. Both of us were used to bottling it up and moping about. I hope we can keep this a permanent part of our relationship. It's going to be difficult at first.

It may be difficult at first, but it may also be a huge relief. Not wondering what the other is thinking, being able to speak to the other about what you are feeling and wanting.

It may be difficult, but in the end, hopefully it brings the two of you closer together and more understanding of the other. Hopefully it will help the two of you take your relationship to another level.

It's good to hear that you are taking this step.

Good luck!

[emptypea2001]

My point is not for him to focus more on masturbation, but to deal with the hormonal level on his own, so that his current obsession isn't always in his wife's face.

[Otown_girl]

Take her on a date. Take her out for lunch and buy her flowers. Start from scratch. Talk about how you met and how you fell in love. It could get the sparks back!

[sourpuss]

.....

[sourpuss]

So the emotional connection is not there, but I've been working on that in the last few days specifically in response to the advice you all have given me. I've been more engaged in our conversations, making her feel that I’m genuinely interested in what we’re talking about. I offered to make her breakfast Sunday morning, which I've never done before, and she seemed to really appreciate that. Just last night out of the blue I offered to help with some of her volunteer work she's been doing, and I spent much of the evening on it. Guess what? She's been more attentive to me physically. Ha! The lights come on!

These are exactly the kinds of things that make women fall in love and stay in love. All too often the guy does that in the beginning to try to impress or win the girl over. Then as soon as he's comfortable and knows he has her, all that little stuff that was so important, stops. That's where the desire for sex stops with most women. Does that make sense? I'd be willing to bet that you were more like that in the beginning and that's probably why there was more sex in the beginning. Women can really start to resent that stuff when it wears off and the 'honeymoon' period is over. We feel duped.

I'm not trying to accuse you or anything. Just a theory. But, if you continue to be attentive and involved, there will be more intimacy in the relationship.

[Ashlee T.]

For me, having my wife make that kind of effort in the bedroom on the surface sounds great. In reality, the whole time I’ll know she’s just doing it to make me happy, not that she’s doing it because she wants to, and I find that sort of forced, I guess. Like I’m not attractive.

If your wife had this same mentality then she could take any efforts you're making right now (making breakfast, helping with volunteer stuff) as just efforts to woo her into the sack. "Is he doing these things because he loves me and really wants to make me happy? OR is he doing these things to try to get me to sleep with him more?".

When i figured out that every time my boyfriend would give me a back rub he'd initiate sex, I stopped wanting the backrubs. Then when he'd ask me "how's your neck today? Want me to rub your neck??" I'd say "no thanks". He couldn't seperate the two. And soon enough, I couldn't either, every time he'd offer I knew "he wants sex". But didn't I deserve to just get a good back rub now and then without feeling like there were alterior motives?

I get what you're saying. But in a sense you're also saying that she can't win here....because even if she starts giving you more bedroom attention you're going to think she's doing it just to make you happy. And maybe for a while that's why she is doing it......but isn't that improvement? Baby steps. I'm just saying, if she's sitting there going "he only helped me with this stuff cause he wants sex...he doesn't really want to" and you're saying "shes only having sex with me to make me happy, she doesn't really want to" then you're being 100% counterproductive.

[MiniVanMan]

These are exactly the kinds of things that make women fall in love and stay in love. All too often the guy does that in the beginning to try to impress or win the girl over. Then as soon as he's comfortable and knows he has her, all that little stuff that was so important, stops. That's where the desire for sex stops with most women. Does that make sense? I'd be willing to bet that you were more like that in the beginning and that's probably why there was more sex in the beginning. Women can really start to resent that stuff when it wears off and the 'honeymoon' period is over. We feel duped.

Well I find that really interesting. I felt duped as soon as the honeymoon period was over and she never wanted sex. It seemed like a bait-and-switch tactic. She's got me, now she can lay off the sex. This is the first time I've heard anything like this from the woman's perspective. I didn't know what could have triggered her drop in sex drive, until now. Clueless. You can just call me clueless now.

And that's likely how it all started. I always believed it was just some kind of physiological change that occurred with all women once they've hooked their man. But clearly we were both responding to the decline in having our needs met, and it was probably happening simultaneously.

Then Beautiful Disaster said:

I get what you're saying. But in a sense you're also saying that she can't win here....because even if she starts giving you more bedroom attention you're going to think she's doing it just to make you happy. And maybe for a while that's why she is doing it......but isn't that improvement? Baby steps. I'm just saying, if she's sitting there going "he only helped me with this stuff cause he wants sex...he doesn't really want to" and you're saying "shes only having sex with me to make me happy, she doesn't really want to" then you're being 100% counterproductive.

You're right. Absolutely. We need to stop second-guessing each other and just take it for what it is.

Last night we had a long heart-to-heart talk. Although I still feel hurt and betrayed, we're opening up to each other now. We agreed that seeing our couples therapist will be necessary to help me get over all this and move on.