[sourpuss]

Wow, that's a huge step in the right direction. Sounds like both of you are past the anger stage and ready to start healing. That's wonderful.

[StillLearnin]

It's great that you are seeing things clearer now, and that you decided to stop seeing the counselor. He was being a destructive force to your marriage.

My situation is an ongoing work in progress, much like yours. My wife never even realized that she was neglecting my needs. It was like she was living her life and not paying any attention to ours (which includes me). She was happy, so that's all that mattered to her. We recently had some troubles with bank fraud, where all of our accounts were wiped out. They cleaned us out. Thankfully the bank caught it and credited all the funds back. It was after spending time at the bank and getting our new accounts set up when the fallout occurred. She was stressed about it all, as I was, rightfully so. It's such a violation for that to happen. She asked me to help her with getting some pictures printed out (through the Kodak website which prints at a local Target, which is really nice). I had plans for the rest of the day, up until our daughters soccer game that evening. So I said, ok, if I can get to it, because I have a lot to do this afternoon too. She responds with something like "I feel that I can never ask you to do anything." Long story short, in my defense, I feel like that's all I've ever done for her and the family. "Everything." Even without having to be asked. I've spent my life doing things for her because I love her and our children. Not because I was asked or begged to. She struck me to the core of who I am. We didn't talk until the next day. I was so hurt by that simple statement which was a direct result of her being stressed out, and she didn't mean it at all in the way it came out.

But what I was getting to relates to your situation about forgetting the past and working on the present. Looking forward, not back. I struggled with this as well. Up until the last hurtful exchange of words which I just described. She's been asking me to forget the past and just look at the positives of the here and now, and our new future together. I have so much resentment built up that I have been struggling to let the past go. (The demons I mentioned in another post) She finally saw how hurt I have been as a result of that, and begged me to forgive her for the pain she's put me through. Since I finally saw that she understood me, I could finally let the past go. She finally understood. But it took a very hurtful conversation to bring that out. Hopefully most of my demons have been released and I can live peacefully now.

What I'm saying to help you is that maybe you won't be able to right away. And that there probably will be some hurt ahead for both of you. But you can work through it, and find that inner peace, and let it all go. Hang in there. You are on the right track.

[MiniVanMan]

Thanks for the pep talk StillLearnin. I'm having some pretty big ups and downs day by day. Sometimes I feel that it's still hopeless. Other times I'm encouraged. Last night I had a stressful talk with my wife where I was trying my hardest to be understanding and all I got was defensiveness in return. So yeah, right now I don't feel so great.

Our couples counselor says my wife and I should go on a vacation with out the kids and without any friends or family. Just the two of us. Maybe we can work that in. It's going to be a busy summer.

[stressed]

You should definitely try for vacation without family. It's amazing how much it can improve one's relationship.

I also thought it would not change anything, it's just what people say, but it was actually after a week's trip away that we started sorting our most serious problems after years of arguments. We reached the point of sitting down for an open talk, in new surroundings, just us, and said we'd either honestly try to fix things or end it all on the last day of the trip. Because when you are on a trip you already get to see something new, you realize how much you want to be with the person you are, if you can make it without your SO or if you need him/her around because s/he makes you happier. Just you and her in a place you haven't been before. It will make you both open up more. Do try it.

[Sailor_67]

Tough-Love

Ok, I'm prepared for what I'm about to say to be poorly received, but I assure you, it is my honest opinion, with your best wishes at heart.

Take the message on board, or discard it, up to you.

Your running faster and faster around in circles like a spaniel chasing it's tail

... This is a classic 50's marriage role reversal.
She is the Alpha female and you are the tragic doormat with an entrenched victim mentality... battered husband syndrome...


I'm sure she's craving for you to act with a bit of moxie, spunk and decisiveness (perhaps like the man she married?)

Why have we had a sexless marriage since we got married 20 years ago if her sex drive is what it is? Why am I the only one going to sex therapy, when she's banging it out solo twice a week? ...So the counselor gave me some coaching and then worksheets to get me "grounded"

The real question is again... why are you playing the victim... stand up to her! She can't make you go to counseling any more than you can make her. At some point you must have agreed the problem is all about you. If so, own that decision, if not, send her to counseling.

It may be that she is so skilled a manipulator, that she's able to convince the therapist the issues begin and end with you...

I mean come on, she's denying sex for 20yrs, all the while hiding regular masturbation sessions from you, and sending you to counseling for your masturbation “problem”, and the counselor gives YOU coaching and worksheets...!

“she stopped wanting sex and I became sullen and withdrawn. I've been unhappy ever since.”

...the classic Passive / Aggressive response, when one partner in a relationship wields an overwhelmingly powerful position, the only perceived option is to become sullen, moody and withdrawn. Unfortunately, this only distances the other partner more.

I am at the point where if I'm talking with her I'm just expecting to be told what to do, or what not to do, or how stupid I am (those are not her words). I'm gun shy about even having a conversation with her because of her extremely assertive personality. We've been over this in counseling, but I'm still gun shy.

...Read between the lines of what you're saying and listen to your choices of words and phrases. “told what to do”, “how stupid I am”, “her extremely assertive personality”, “I'm gun shy” Even if she does still love you, . You're a man, not a helpless child, start acting like one.

“Yes, you're right. It's been so bad for so long that I am angry, resentful, hurt, confused, I just want to freaking scream. Scream and jump up and down and throw a fit. Something I've never done as an adult. It's that bad.”

She has 20yrs of running rings around you with cruel manipulative mind games, so... do it, jump up and down, throw a few plates. It's ok to show someone your ****ed off when they've mistreated and disrespected you. What, are you going to wait for another 20yrs?

“Something I've never done as an adult”

. That's too bad, older does not necessarily mean wiser. Now, kids would have a big screaming fight and be back playing happily the next day, better friends than ever. It's only with the tyranny of adulthood, that we feel compelled to be un-naturally measured, rational, reasonable and bottle things up (for an eventual catastrophic explosion).

Right before spring break we agreed that we should separate. She contacted a lawyer and I was in the process of finding one. A few days later she was, in her own words, "practically begging" me to stay together and give it another shot. I gave in because I was too weak to say no.

Again she got her way, right to the precipice of divorce, and you buckled “I was too weak to say no”. I'm not saying divorce is the option, but it may be a final sub-conscious plea from her for you to be an equal partner, not a dependent (very unsexy).

Your only hope is to rapidly grow a backbone and let her see you have one.

If becoming assertive fixes the situation, wonderful. If you find out she is secretly not (or no longer) attracted to men. That's hard, but at least you know and if so, it's pretty cruel to manufacture a scenario where it's all about you if this was the case.

The only unsustainable thing you can do is keep doing what you've been doing, and being the way you've been being.

[MiniVanMan]

Your only hope is to rapidly grow a backbone and let her see you have one.
...
If becoming assertive fixes the situation, wonderful.
...
The only unsustainable thing you can do is keep doing what you've been doing, and being the way you've been being.

I honestly believe that she is not intentionally over-assertive. She is not trying to force me into submission. I think she has no idea how overpowering her personality is, not just to me but to others as well.

Our counselor has been working on assertiveness with me, and it's helping me feel better about myself, if not the relationship. But on top of that, lately she's been having me "break the pattern". What she means is the pattern of feeling put down by my wife and slinking away in defeat. She's got me openly questioning my wife, challenging my interpretation of her responses. Not in an adversarial way, but in a way that doesn't start a conflict.

She's got me working on understanding that a curt response that I would normally interpret as a personal "f*ck you" attack probably isn't that at all. Maybe she had a moron try to run her off the road on the way home from work. Maybe she's feeling ill. Maybe the kids are driving her crazy. Point is, I shouldn't take every response from her as being all about me and what an idiot I am. I'm starting to get the point. I'm developing a thicker skin, as it were.

Things kind of suck right now. We've been seeing our couples counselor individually for a few weeks. Will be going back as a couple in July. The big issue now is that my wife can't or won't have sex if she's stressed, and summer is more stressful for her now that school is out and she's home with the kids every day. She hopes to get a new job in the fall, and she's already declared that I should expect to not have sex for several weeks at least while she settles in. Then the holidays hit, which is THE most stressful time for her. So to me that means no sex until January. Lovely.

When I suggested to our counselor that my wife needs to work on ways to manage her stress levels, the response was that I needed to be the one to reduce her stress. I need to take on more responsibility so that she can be more relaxed. Problem is, my wife admits that no matter what gets done there will always be some chore or task not yet done, and that destroys her sex drive. And that's why I think she needs to learn to lower her own stress levels. I will never be able to do enough.

[Fallen1]

She hopes to get a new job in the fall, and she's already declared that I should expect to not have sex for several weeks at least while she settles in. Then the holidays hit, which is THE most stressful time for her. So to me that means no sex until January. Lovely.

This I don't understand. She's already decided and knows that she won't feel like having sex?

When I suggested to our counselor that my wife needs to work on ways to manage her stress levels, the response was that I needed to be the one to reduce her stress. I need to take on more responsibility so that she can be more relaxed. Problem is, my wife admits that no matter what gets done there will always be some chore or task not yet done, and that destroys her sex drive. And that's why I think she needs to learn to lower her own stress levels. I will never be able to do enough.

I don't understand this either. Why is it just you? I can understand her telling you this only if she in turn was also working with your wife and telling her to also find solutions. This should be both of you working on your problems not just you.

[purplehaze]

She's got me working on understanding that a curt response that I would normally interpret as a personal "f*ck you" attack probably isn't that at all. Maybe she had a moron try to run her off the road on the way home from work. Maybe she's feeling ill. Maybe the kids are driving her crazy. Point is, I shouldn't take every response from her as being all about me and what an idiot I am. I'm starting to get the point. I'm developing a thicker skin, as it were.

Is she curt to everyone or just you? Something tells me she has full control of this and you are on the $hitty end of the situation. One step forward and two steps back. I have read your whole thread and it's just my opinion, but you are in a no win arrangement. You deserve to be happy!!

[MiniVanMan]

Why is it just you? I can understand her telling you this only if she in turn was also working with your wife and telling her to also find solutions. This should be both of you working on your problems not just you.

Like me, she's been seeing the same counselor on her own. However, I don't know what they're working on because whenever I ask my wife how it went she gruffly responds "fine" and then changes the subject.

I've seen no change in behavior from her, while on my end I've been openly making an effort to break the pattern and help her out more, engage more in conversations, etc. It's been tough, though. It may not be as obvious to her as I'd like to think it is.

[sourpuss]

I think maybe you need a new counselor.