[WildChild]

Well, Thomas, you have to keep in mind that for many generations men co-oped sex as their domain. "Good" women just tollerated it as a "marital duty". Depending on where they were,women had few or no options to support themselves and in much of the world including the US, women could not legally own anything, including the clothes on their bodies.

There are still people who believe that women brought sin into the world and are essentially just vessels for a man's seed. With generation upon generation raised with this, it will not vanish over night. Especially not with groups such as Focus on the Family, excuse me, their new name is Citizen Link, and other conservative groups working to "restore" "traditional values".

In many ways women can't win, if we are sexual, sensual and sexually active, we are HOs or at least highly suspect. If we are "good" and keep our sexual awareness and desires supressed and unacted upon, then we are frigid. Women get really mixed messages and for many women the only way they can enjoy sex is to pretty much completely disavow any responsibilty or action sexually. There are men who reinforce this whether they realize or or not. The man in my life sends very mixed messages, most attempts on my part to initiate sex cause him to feel "pressured" but if I quit any initiation then he thinks I don't want him. WT? What am I supposed to do?

This is going to take conscious behavior and effort to create change along with a lot of communication and education.

[Little]

Not necessarily that they do all the work, but have you noticed how society puts all the pressure on men? If a man can't get an erection that's his problem and he must sort it out.If a woman is not sufficiently aroused, again, that's because he has not given her enough attention to get her aroused. I wonder just what women are supposed to be responsible for if the man is responsible for getting both bodies aroused ??

You're joking, right? Is this sarcasm?
I live in the American South, but I've been all around the US, parts of Europe and Latin America ... I'll tell you a story about my workplace and you may think it's a regional peculiarity, but I promise you I've encountered similar stereotypes in every region I've lived in.
A woman I work with and a married male manager were found in an area of the store one morning engaging in a sexual act. The male manager, after an "investigation," is no longer employed there (nobody in the store knows if he was fired or quit, or under what circumstances, though it was confirmed to have something to do with the incident.) About a month after the first male manager left, another married male manager also left ... there was a rumor from a few years ago that they had an inappropriate relationship, but nothing recently. The second manager made lots of mistakes in his job and I personally put in a complaint at his mishandling of an HR issue concerning my pregnancy. Getting to the point:
This woman has taken all the blame from the other workers at her level (non-management.) She is said to have "seduced" these two men ... it's also said that, as she's still employed with the company, she will eventually "get someone else in trouble." There is zero consideration that she might have been coerced into that relationship (I don't believe that a truly equal relationship between a boss and a worker can happen,) or that either of the men were willing participants or initiators. The pity is for the married men, their wives and their children. The responsibility is put on the (single) woman, 100%. There is no 50/50 split. The woman is a "ho," and the man is a victim.
This kind of thinking is pervasive. It happens everywhere and can only change SLOWLY. There is a whole complex (the Madonna-"ho" Complex) in psychology for it, a whole concept created in Latin American culture study for it (Ave v. Eva, or marianismo.)
If a man has problems with his erections - and has enough sense to overcome his pride - he can go to the doctor and, hey, here's a pill. Problem solved. If a woman has problems with her orgasms - "well, you should just try harder, or not try so hard, or you have to relax, or your partner must not be good enough, try with me" ... and when none of those work, "OH WELL! You must just be frigid, I don't know." Even in our pharmaceutical-driven society, there isn't a pill yet to help women reach orgasm? I'll tell you why - science doesn't find it important. It's much more important to pump our bodies full of hormones, warping them in ways we can't begin to pinpoint yet, so that women cannot tie men down by bearing children ... but that ruin the woman's sex drive for the sake of the man's.
I don't know what kind of women you're having relations with, but I will give you a 100% guarantee that there are men who are just as irresponsible for their own pleasure. The thousands of threads about mismatched desire will tell you that, and I will tell you I've been with one myself. It's not a gender thing, it's a personal issue.

[ItsASecret]

I'll tell you why - science doesn't find it important. It's much more important to pump our bodies full of hormones, warping them in ways we can't begin to pinpoint yet, so that women cannot tie men down by bearing children ... but that ruin the woman's sex drive for the sake of the man's.

Sorry but I have to butt in, science does find it important because the word Money is delightful to the pharmaceutical companies...they want that 'arousal/orgasm' pill created and patented a.s.a.p. As for the hormone (p.s not actually hormones) birth control pill that "warps" the body...well it has become a necessity to many. The age ol' "it doesn't affect everyone in the same way" trumps a lot when it comes to explaining those particular matters. But I do understand what you mean when it comes to the rising problem that so many women are unfortunately experiencing with these drugs.

[Guest]

I take your point Little about the "seducing" of the men. As you say, this could be a cultural issue that greater or lesser wherever you go.But it's actually not what I was saying. What I was saying is that in a relationship , the pressure seems to be on the man to make sex work.Certainly here, if you read the agony columns (I try not to often) always put the pressure for the completetion of the sex act on the man. For example, if a man has an erection problem, a doctor or counsellor doesn't first ask the woman what she might have done wrong? Do you see what I mean ?You're right though, the woman's sexuality is very confusing. Often she can't do right by whatever she does. And, if my partner asked me for sex, nearly always the answer would be yes. Again I think this shows how emanicipated the ladies are that read these threads.But we've all been brought up in different cultures, even in the same country, so therefore our attitudes and experiences vary.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

the pressure seems to be on the man to make sex work.

I wonder how many women like to be in control, not on occasions, but generally, and how many women, prefer "a man" and therefore, whilst foreplay is still involved, naturally, he is the one that has to make it work, it's his thingy and it therefore has to perform

IDK, remember, that alot of men don't give signals as to "it's okay to ask, I'll give" and also, sometimes, when asked " na, I'm tired" comes out and so they feel rejected, which is still part of "making sex work", because if this is a genuine fear, all she will do is "pretend", joke around and see if he recipitates and therefore, sex occurs.

But, ultimately we know that it's up to him, the man, it's his thing after all.

Also, it's not our fault that someone decided that we have to enjoy it, feel loads of excitement, when that thing is inside, in order to have babies So, it's not our fault that we can be like an ever ready battery and keep going and going and going and going

But jokes aside, I do get that it's our job I think, to remember, that it's tiring and requires effort and there is nothing wrong with sharing and ensuring that a man can lay there as well and enjoy... at least until we get tired and can't anymore And, then we need to start the gym so we can be more accomodating sometimes...

So, I say, it sucks being a woman as well because we want to be equal but we weren't born to do that part you lot were.....

CW

[Guest]

Good point CW. Summed up nicely. The good thing about this website is that we get to know more about how the other sex's needs/fears/thoughts etc etc.

x

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Good point CW. Summed up nicely. The good thing about this website is that we get to know more about how the other sex's needs/fears/thoughts etc etc.

x

You know Thomas, I figure it must be very difficult for the man...

If he can perform for along time, he's in trouble in her eyes if she is not understanding, if she looses her wetness and if he can not perform for along time, then he's in trouble again, if she is not understanding because, he can't keep it up long enough.

The point I was making Was, it is his thing... and he has to perform, and that must be hard especially at the beginning of any relationship, to please, pleasure, feel manly, last longer..

But, on the other coin, yes, sometimes we feel like sugar, I'm horny and want that thing But, he does sometimes say na, tired.. and we do feel rejected and we do wonder if we can ask ... so the playful, teeze is the only way we can tell? And, we can muck around after and say, "na, I was just wanting to see if I could get you up, I'm not horny, it was just a bit of fun" a way out I guess

But, I'm glad I am a woman... it is easier... But I do understand that we have to give as well, it's only fair, it's understandable that you perform, use your muscles and work to keep it alive, you know, that thingy

CW

[WildChild]

You know, the thing is, there are many ways to pleasure and too many people, male and female, never take the time, communicate or make the effort to learn or become really skilled in love making. It's about a whole lot more than penis in the vagina. In many ways its an entire lifestyle and thinking. It's self pleasuring and pleasuring the other every day in hundreds of little ways to bring both to a state of responsiveness and awareness and joy. I know some people who truly do this, consciously.

This doesn't mean they never disagree or get out of sorts but they have created such a strong, loving bond that everything in their lives follows a thread of sensuality and pleasure. There isn't all this score keeping of who has it harder (pun intended) or who puts the most effort into it. Each does things that they enjoy and each does things to add to the other's pleasure in all area of life. It cooperation, not competition.

[Little]

Sorry but I have to butt in, science does find it important because the word Money is delightful to the pharmaceutical companies...they want that 'arousal/orgasm' pill created and patented a.s.a.p. As for the hormone (p.s not actually hormones) birth control pill that "warps" the body...well it has become a necessity to many. The age ol' "it doesn't affect everyone in the same way" trumps a lot when it comes to explaining those particular matters. But I do understand what you mean when it comes to the rising problem that so many women are unfortunately experiencing with these drugs.

I should be fair, scientists are working on these arousal drugs for women ... there are probably quite a few pharmacy grad students getting their PhD's on it. But in today's world where you can farm out that work to thousands of grad students at a time just for a cheap fellowship, you would think it would already be done and approved by the FDA. So where's the hold up?
Lots of birth control pills are made with different hormones and combinations thereof, so it's unfair to try to blame everything on ONE hormone.
I'm one of those women basically chained to a pack of pills because of gynecological problems that aren't worth enough cash money to the men in white lab coats to try to actually fix. They think that throwing hormones at my body will make it all better ... when it actually just covers up and slows down the problems. It bothers me more and more when I find out that I have 2-3 different problems with female-specific parts of my body but they can all be treated by birth control. Certainly, all those parts were created by estrogen in the first place, but it just seems like a cop-out, and like it was being made impossible for me to try to conceive.

But back to the main topic, Thomas, it is probably more socially acceptable for a man to be "in control" of his sexual life because there's this crazy social agenda still being pushed that a man should be the boss, that a woman should be feeble and permissive and it pervades our sexual culture too. I know the frustration of being the one always "in charge" of the sexual part of a relationship because of somebody else's hang-ups. ("Please, can't we have sex? I'll be on top. What about just giving you a blow job? Come on. We haven't seen each other in 3 months, I'm not crazy or a nympho, I just want to have a healthy sexual relationship! No, don't go home, just forget about it, I won't bring it up again.") Nobody in a healthy relationship *should* get any kind of sadistic pleasure out of denying their partner anything they feel they need ... including sexual gratification. Some people do, and with others it's more that their partner's needs are more than they can compromise to. Calling it a male vs female issue just doesn't take the whole picture into account.
And as for the erection problems - there are still OB/GYNs out there who don't think the female orgasm exists or that female gratification is necessary. I fervently hope that they are relegated to the small town clinics of the world, as that's the only place I've found them ... but that's also the only place I've gone to an OB/GYN office, so I can't be sure. No, I don't imagine that the woman's response would be the first thing questioned, but I don't think that the man's ability should be the first thing questioned in a case where a woman can't achieve orgasm either ... that line of questioning isn't very well-thought-out. It's more likely that a woman has her own mental block put up, rather than a "plumbing problem" or her partner's ability. But that's just another way women are painted as victims in our society ... it can't be their own fault, always somebody else's.

[WildChild]

To follow up on Little's points, the negative attitude toward women's bodies and sexuality in health care, at least in the US, is reflected in our having the world's highest rates of c-sections and hysterectomies and one of the highest maternal/infant mortality rates in the developed world. Having seen my ex through testicular cancer I saw first hand how squeemish the medical world is about removing a testicle but women are routinely recommended to have their entire reproductive system removed because, "you don't need the baby factory anymore". And yet woman's ovaries do for her what a man's testicles do for him.

While there are been some movement toward less invasive surgery, I can't think of any done to men that is analogous to breast cancer treatment - just take em off. If one is cancerous, better have them both off just to be safe. There are women who've had their breast removed because they fear they will get breast cancer, not because they have it! What responsible practitioner would do that kind of elective surgery? Would they even consider removing a man's prostate just because he is afraid he might get prostate cancer? I doubt it very much.

I had trouble with continuous bleeding, was put on progesterine. What an awful expereince. It made an emotional and physical mess of me in short order. But since I don't think my doctors are gods, I just went in and said, "no, I'm not doing this to myself, find another solution." I did my research, spoke to other women and then I told her what I wanted and she agreed it was the best solution. But I had to go hunt up the info on my own...I got a D&C and ablation and have had no further problems. My menopause has been more like meno-blink. But if I had stayed on the drugs I'd be as messed up and miserable as thousands of other women. Our society and medical profession just doesn't put much value on women's expereince. It will take women and men rethinking and changing their attitudes and behaviors to insist that this changes.