[Little]

Skippy, CW just outlined for me what parts of my post were indeed taking Troop's feelings into account. You chose to ignore them and bring me down instead, AND you continue to insist that my NEEDS are not that at all, and desires instead. Try re-reading my last post and actually listening to what I'm saying. Oh, wait! You don't listen to ANYTHING your dissenters say on this board. You can compliment me all you like, but if you're not actually hearing my points, there is only insult.

Troop, I don't want you to be hurt because I'm expressing what MY needs are in a relationship. I'm a married woman who, for all I know, may be on the other side of the globe from you. In the event that I met you, dated you, and liked you, only to find out that your penis was 3" or less, I'd certainly give you a fair shot, because who knows? I can only SUPPOSE that 3" would be my cutoff, as I've not been in that situation nor had to make that choice. But in the event that I, as your imaginary partner, had to choose between a lack of sexual satisfaction, possibly for the rest of our lives, or continuing an unfulfilling relationship just to ensure you feel good about your penis size, know that if I chose #2, the unhappiness in bed would eventually spill into the rest of our lives and slowly make us miserable. A woman who gives you a tactful, caring, and respectful breakup is committing the lesser evil than the woman who would essentially lead you on only to hurt you in bigger ways later.

[Guest]

I do not have time to make a long reply -- I will try later tonight or tomorrow or even Tuesday. But let me add that I think the last few responses by everyone -- including Little's -- related to Troop are great. I echo the mind of matter thought of CW and her question. Likewise, I agree with Little that you can focus on other aspects.

My comments -- although stern and explcit -- were not meant to be put downs to anyone. I will chime in more later -- but am committed to smoothing out the tension.

[Little]

I never said that "you can focus on other aspects." That was you. I said that some people don't put as high a value on penetrative sex (and others mentioned that some don't put any value on it at all,) and that perhaps those with truly below-averaged sized penises who have esteem issues concerning them could pursue those who concentrate on other methods of sexual satisfaction.

Don't twist my words.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

For some reason Little, I feel like putting my finger in your hair there, as you smile and twist a curl?

There is something to be said about women.

We strive for perfection, we strive for jumping over hurdles, we strive for finding if at all possible resolution, other methods, ways, results and we strive at compassion...

Whilst we, as women have in-securities, we see the positives as much as possible... I now wonder if men are so different from us, all they see is hurt.

Guess we were the lucky genders to be born.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

PS: JNS, Max, other valued male long term members, excluding you off course you have the same tendencies, must be able to be in tune with your feminine side

[Beththebutterfly]

Just for my two cent . I have been married a while and never measured my husbands penis. I just never felt the need to know......One time he did say it was 6 and a quarter inches though ..So I guess he needed to know.Like most men seem to know there size.

[caterpillar79]

Every gender has his or her own place to get stuck with. In this case, this man is stuck with his penis size. Likewise, some women are stuck with their.....lol.....shoes, bags, and shopping! (Kidding).

[Guest]

Little:

I have learned in life that people are often quick to outline other people’s problematic behaviors, than their own. I have tried to listen to your words, but I am not sure you are listening to mine. For example, in my last post 64 I am attempting to reconcile our different views related to your post 52. I was trying to agree with you that there are other aspects of sex that can be pleasurable to women (oral) that men who are smaller can do. I can chalk up your mis-interpretation to my rushed and poor writing, but I also think that you are not listening to the positive parts of my writing, and instead focused on the negatives. I would suggest that you do the thing that CW suggested – see the positives in my posts, not the negatives. I will try to do the same and realize that I am also guilty of seeing only the negative.

With that said, let me get to the crux of my issue (paragraph below). I hope we can reconcile your differences in a mature way and hope this post does not seem as attacking. I also realize I may be focused on the negative (below) and hope we can turn this into a positive (either through the collective will of other posters or even in some private messages between us– if needed).

In post 52 you state back to Troop – a guy who just stated (1) his penis is quite below average, and (2) he feels inadequate about it and “like crap” – that you “would not be able to stay in a relationship with a man who is significantly below average.” Troop may be that man, and due to this, I find your comments incredible insensitive and self-focused. That is why I differed between a need and desire – needs are things as human we have to have to live. We need food or water or we die. As CW stated, it’s about mind over matter and I am challenging you to apply this. If you husband was in a car accident and had traumatic pelvis injuries and lost his ability to have an erection (or cancer of the penis with removal of it) – would you divorce him because “you would not be able to stay in a relationship with a man who is significantly below average?” Perhaps this is a gender difference between men and women, but I think most men who are smaller would find this to be an incredible insensitive post. I look to other men who are following this thread for their thoughts (maybe I am jumping to conclusions).
Further, by outlining your desire for penetrative sex, the obvious though is that that a guy who is longer or bigger can have greater penative sex. Maybe I am wrong on this and you need to challenge my thinking on this, but it’s how I interpreted your words. If that is the cause, then a man who is smaller will feel inaquate.

In the end, let me say this related to CW words about finding the feminine side. I have tried to become more “feminine” over the years. At one time in my life I was the guy who thought bigger was better and I am a guy that is larger than average. To this end, I think that I am now a male who has internalized the fact – which most women make – that size (related to penises and breasts) does not matter, it’s all about personality. Having sons and a daughter has helped me realize how harmful my past behaviors – which is viewed as normative male behavior – have been in thinking bigger was better. So, I am trying, but perhaps I am still a little too maleish-aggressive in my posts. If I have been too aggressive in outlining mixed message, let me know and I will try to do better.

At the end, Little, even though I find your comments insensitive, I do hope we can reconcile our differences and that may mean other thread members being liaisons or some private conversations. I realize this is a woman forum and that I am new and male and may have not understood the culture of this website. I have also learned from you and others that some women’s comment about their men’s size – and actually measuring it – may be more connected to simple curiosity and silliness and not much else. But I did find your comments to Troop to be insensitive.

If enough people ask me to leave, I have no problem leaving, although I will admit I have found the conversations engaging.

[maleview]

A couple of thoughts: 1) I have learned over the years that it is not wise to try to tell a woman what she should think. 2) I am on here hoping to get honest answers from women so I can be more informed in dealing with the women (wife, daughter etc.) in my life. 3) If men could manipulate their penis like a finger "too small" would never be an issue, but "too large" still would.

[Little]

I'll try to take this point by point so I'm not overlooking anything.

In post 52 you state back to Troop – a guy who just stated (1) his penis is quite below average, and (2) he feels inadequate about it and “like crap” – that you “would not be able to stay in a relationship with a man who is significantly below average.” Troop may be that man, and due to this, I find your comments incredible insensitive and self-focused.

Those words were meant to be honest and frank, and to highlight that though I as an individual require one thing of a relationship, I am not representative of EVERY woman's requirements. It was a juxtaposition: I, who require penetrative sex, versus the woman who values different forms of sex more equally, versus a woman who may essentially hate penetrative sex but value oral sex as highly as I value penetrative.

That is why I differed between a need and desire – needs are things as human we have to have to live. We need food or water or we die.

I've already explained that while I realize I will not physically die without sex, a budding relationship would suffer - perhaps mortally. I stipulate that a BUDDING relationship would be the one to suffer, both to segue into your proposed scenario, and to mention that because I value sex so highly, I would not (and have never) get(gotten) too attached before ensuring a degree of sexual compatibility exists. Perhaps a more precise word would be "requirement," but that's cumbersome and doesn't get to the point. I NEED sex from a healthy relationship, so I'm going to call it a need.

As CW stated, it’s about mind over matter and I am challenging you to apply this. If you husband was in a car accident and had traumatic pelvis injuries and lost his ability to have an erection (or cancer of the penis with removal of it) – would you divorce him because “you would not be able to stay in a relationship with a man who is significantly below average?”

Obviously, this would not be subject to previous logic, because it does not apply to a budding relationship. He was chosen on the basis of having fulfilled all my requirements and consistently meeting my needs (which made the growing love for him tenable, to be clear.) Taking away his penis does not magically remove his DNA from my son, does not remove the years of previous need-meeting. It also doesn't remove the level of comfort and spirit of compromise we've developed in our relationship - two things that do NOT exist in a brand-new one. Even barring the possibility for reconstructive surgery, there is a rich and varied industry of sex toys that would supplement that which had been unfairly taken from our relationship. Throwing a strap-on at a cruddy situation is a FAR cry from throwing a strap-on at a cruddy match.

Perhaps this is a gender difference between men and women, but I think most men who are smaller would find this to be an incredible insensitive post. I look to other men who are following this thread for their thoughts (maybe I am jumping to conclusions).

I must respectfully disagree with my fellow Administrator, CW, on the idea of gender differences beyond the physiological. Just throwing out there that I don't think one gender is superior to another in any way, but instead try to judge on an individual basis. That shouldn't come as a shock, seeing as how I may explode if I type the word individual one more time, but I wanted to clarify.

Further, by outlining your desire for penetrative sex, the obvious thought is that that a guy who is longer or bigger can have greater penetrative sex. Maybe I am wrong on this and you need to challenge my thinking on this, but it’s how I interpreted your words. If that is the cause, then a man who is smaller will feel inadequate.

This is almost funny to me, because I actually get "fan mail" in my WH inbox for previous posts (around 2008) singing the praise of an ex-boyfriend whose size was below average. He was a good match to my vaginal size. This is just another INDIVIDUAL issue. While I have a small vagina and cannot comfortably accommodate sizes above average (at least I couldn't before I pushed a baby through it As for now, who knows??) for another woman whose vagina is naturally larger, a larger penis may be more effective for her pleasure. And I won't begrudge her that pleasure! After all, there should be a better match than me for those poor boys I said "no" to over the years because they were too big (true story!)

In the end, let me say this related to CW words about finding the feminine side. I have tried to become more “feminine” over the years. At one time in my life I was the guy who thought bigger was better and I am a guy that is larger than average. To this end, I think that I am now a male who has internalized the fact – which most women make – that size (related to penises and breasts) does not matter, it’s all about personality. Having sons and a daughter has helped me realize how harmful my past behaviors – which is viewed as normative male behavior – have been in thinking bigger was better. So, I am trying, but perhaps I am still a little too maleish-aggressive in my posts. If I have been too aggressive in outlining mixed message, let me know and I will try to do better.

I don't really have anything to say to this, considering it assigns behaviors and traits to genders rather than individuals, which is incongruous with my views. If I wanted you off the forum, I would simply ban you. Ask around: the ban hammer is applied liberally on this forum. Are you dismissive and bullheaded? Sure. Do you display zero desire to actually learn or let your views change on the subjects you start? Yup. But as you said, the conversations are engaging. And I yet hold hope that you can find some kind of value for the individual, some kind of disdain for unnecessary self-flagellation.