[Guest]

Stillness,

You're right on the money with an opinion born of actual experience.

I have known many women who have been married many times. A commonality is propensity to blame men for failed relationship when in reality they're the ones who were screwed up.

This is one reason why being in many relationship before marriage is beneficial. Before committing to one woman...or one man, possessing a wide breadth of knowledge of who would be the ideal wife or husband for a person would likely lead to a more secure marriage.

[Stillness]

Stillness,

You're right on the money with an opinion born of actual experience.

I have known many women who have been married many times. A commonality is propensity to blame men for failed relationship when in reality they're the ones who were screwed up.

This is one reason why being in many relationship before marriage is beneficial. Before committing to one woman...or one man, possessing a wide breadth of knowledge of who would be the ideal wife or husband for a person would likely lead to a more secure marriage.

If you mean that dating or spending time with people of the opposite sex is ideal, I agree with you. If you mean having sex with them, I agree with Obelisk. The ideal would be for virgins to marry. It allows for the best focus and bonding between a couple.

[Guest]

I believe the ideal is to marry one with whom you share compatibility.

I know of many men who have married women who had children from previous relationships and were very happy in their marriages. I know a guy who married a pregnant girl who was carrying her former b/f's child. That was about 30 years ago & as far as I know they're still married.

While I cannot definitively say this is true, I would venture a guess that in rare cases where virgins marry, their marriages are less secure vis-a-vis those who have had previous sexual relationships.

According to wiki, the percent of college coeds who are virgins is about 33%. I'd bet it's lower than that.

[Obelisk]

SansSouci, why don't you answer my questions instead of calling my views unsubstantiated? My knowledge is from talking to a lot of people on the web, and gathering their experiences.

[Guest]

Obelisk,

What is your question?

I do suspect we have divergent definitions of knowledge.

[Obelisk]

If you mean that dating or spending time with people of the opposite sex is ideal, I agree with you. If you mean having sex with them, I agree with Obelisk. The ideal would be for virgins to marry. It allows for the best focus and bonding between a couple.

Absolutely agree!

What is your question?

I do suspect we have divergent definitions of knowledge.

Hmm, I'll answer by answering your previous post:

[quote]

Pay attention here because if you can't grasp this basic concept, you're in need of therapy: it's non sequitur that because I am very confident of my ability to sexually satisfy a woman that therefore I am good with her sleeping with other men while she's my wife or girlfriend. To believe your spurious malarkey, one would have to be working with deeply flawed theories of components of enduring relationships, one of which is fidelity.

You claim you are confident that you have good ability to satisfy a woman sexually. This implies that you believe that a woman should feel fulfilled by being with you and should not need to seek out another man. How can you be absolutely sure of that?

You speak of enduring relationships. What's enduring?

You also claim that I have no basis on which to make my comments. I may have limited sexual experience, but even that was enough to open my eyes a little to things I was oblivious of prior to to that.

For example, when I slept with the first girl, it was not what I was expecting. It wasn't nearly as mind blowing as everyone seems to tell you. And that girl was hot, perfect body and above average face.

When I slept with the second girl, she wasn't as attractive, her breasts were smaller, but her vagina was tighter. I still enjoyed it, and I never considered myself a breast man (I still am not) but I can say that there was a significant difference in feel to me (where with the first girl I could cup my entire hands around her breasts, and with the second girl my hands seemed huge, and there wasn't much to grab).

I never meant to tally up a list of stuff I liked and disliked about each girl. It just happened. I realized then why being a virgin, and marrying a virgin is the ideal.

I can't undo what I did. If I find a great girl who is a virgin let's say, and she loves me, I can't undo the comparison in my head that will happen once we become physical.

So that's my limited experience.

Then to add, I've been trying to find out as much as I can from different sources, including this forum. Bottom line is, just as I now have a frame of reference to compare any other women I'm with, women have a frame of reference to compare all the guys they have been with.

You make the assumption that in a monogamous relationship, the past is the past and should be forgotten. I'm sure it can be suppressed enough, and in fact I believe that's what most people do, including yourself.

Would you disagree with me?

While I cannot definitively say this is true, I would venture a guess that in rare cases where virgins marry, their marriages are less secure vis-a-vis those who have had previous sexual relationships.

The reason for that IMO is that society teaches us that we should have as many sexual experiences as we can before settling down. Virgins that waited to be with each other are told by society they missed out, so they struggle in their marriages because both of them felt like they didn't enjoy their youth.

Also there's some kind of assumption that both partners should accumulate massive sexual experience so that both of them are awesome in the sack the first time out.

I would say that for me, the preference would be to be inexperienced, and have someone inexperienced so we both could slowly learn each other physically and in turn create a stronger emotional bond.

How can a person do that when they have 20+ lays under their belt?

[rcoreyus]

You can never be sure of anything in life, certainly not of anything that involves emotions. My wife seems happy with me in bed so I'm happy. Sure, maybe she has a hoard of secret lovers that she meets for lunch - but I have no reason to think so. Maybe she is a secret agent trained to kill for the Moldovian army. Lots of things are possible, but I only worry about the ones that seem likely.

Obelisk - how beautiful a woman is has almost nothing to do with how enjoyable sex with her would be.

If I were looking for another woman (which I'm not, since I'm very happy with my wife). whether or not she was a virgin wouldn't matter - though at my age a virgin would be very unusual so that might indicate some other issue. If I had any preference it would be for her to have had lots of other experiences - maybe she could teach me something new.

After 30 years, I don't know my wife's sexual experiences before me. I don't care - if she decided to tell me, I'd listen, but it doesn't matter.

The only other woman I've slept with (decades ago), had had many previous partners. That was fine with me. We had a very good time - though without the really deep emotional connection that I have now. She made some very flattering comments about my performance in bed, which was nice of her, but it didn't matter to me if I was really the **best** she had ever had. The fact that she wanted me to believe that showed that she cared for me.

[Guest]

Obelisk,

Your question:

"This implies that you believe that a woman should feel fulfilled by being with you and should not need to seek out another man. How can you be absolutely sure of that?"

Open and honest communication about sex is essential for a healthy sexual relationship. Women know what they want from sex. They should never feel inhibited about expressing their sexual desires. Once I know what a woman wants, it's my responsibility to fulfill her desires. If I thought she was getting sex from other men, she wouldn't be my wife/girlfriend. Trust is essential for an enduring relationship.

My former g/f with whom I was in love & I used to talk about sex a lot. In fact, I'd let her do most of the talking. That is how I knew what she liked and didn't. One of her more serious problems in her second marriage was that she was far more sexually experienced than he was even though he was more than a few years older than her. Worse, he refused to learn, and he ridiculed her because she asked him to do certain acts. She does not prefer missionary sex, and she does not like tender loving. She wants a man who takes charge. He'd get on top of her and look into her eyes while he slowly did her. She hated it. He had no clue how to go down on her. She loves oral sex. She can cum all night long from oral sex. She likes men to cum on her & she likes facials. She once asked him to cum on her t!ts. He refused saying it was gross. Listening to her, I learned how to satisfy her. Keep in mind that she has had many sexual partners. She used to tell me all the time that I was the best. And I was the best because I listened to her and did her like a cheap porn star, which is what she loves. She loves to be talked to like a cheap porn star. If she'd tell me to cum on her face or t!ts, I'd do it. After she came many times, I'd yank her off the bed, push her over it, and do her hard from behind while she masturbated to yet another orgasm. Sometimes I'd stop doing her, turn her around, pull her to her knees, tell her to open her mouth, and put my d!ck in her mouth, and she finished me with great head. That is how she loves sex. When we were out of the bedroom, I treated her like a princess. In the bedroom, she wants to be treated like a cheap porn star. And she loves it. BTW, I loved her more than any woman I have ever known & that includes my ex-wife.

Your belief that marrying a virgin is ideal is your opinion. It might work for you & it might not. In my opinion, the reality is there are not many women in their 20's who are virgins, especially if they have gone to college. To my way of looking at it, I'm realistic. I know that I'll never meet a woman in my age group that's a virgin, and it would have no bearing on how I feel about her. Whether she has had sex with 100 men or one man it not the criterion. How I feel about her is. The reality is a women in my age group have had a lot of sex; however, I have dated women who have told me that they have not had good sex in their marriages. I've recently dated a professional woman (not the doctor) who was in a miserable marriage where sex was her husband cumming and that was it. The first time she was with me she was insatiable. I made sure that she came many times. Her ex-husband was inexperienced. His lack of sexual ability was one reason she divorced him. She knew there was more to sex that his doing her and going to sleep. And women who know what good sex is find it difficult to endure relationships in which they are unfulfilled.

Men always have good sex because it's easy for them to orgasm. Women aren't as easy to reach orgasm. It takes a lot of foreplay and knowledge. The best way to gain that knowledge is to ask women what they like and don't like. They know what they like and don't like via experience.

I do not compare women based upon sex. I judge them by how I feel about them. Sex can get my attention but it won't keep it if I don't feel it for a woman.

BTW, I am long past done with casual sex. There are far more women in my age group than men. Competition for men is tough for women. It seems as though women in my age group are willing to have sex in order to remain in the game. But I am done with the BS that goes along with casual sex. While I will still date women, I am in no rush to have sex with them even though it's obvious most are willing. I no longer want to go though the meaningless talk about future dates when I know I won't see them again. I would much rather find my best friend. And I did take a woman I have recently met on a date last Sunday. She is very pretty, very intelligent, has a very good paying job, and appears to be a lot of fun. I will date her again because I think we'll become friends. If we're friends and it looks we're headed for a relationship, then I'll be good with intimacy with her. But I'd also be good just being friends with her.

Were I you I'd be dating a lot of women. That way you'll have a good idea of what your ideal women is instead of an abstract concept. Keep in mind that if you date a college educated woman, odds are she has had a lot of sex. Do not allow that to diminish her worth. She might just be the girl of your dreams. And if she wants to talk about her previous boyfriends, never throw in her face what she tells you. Were you to do so, you'll violate her trust in you. Were that to occur, she'll never again trust you, which means that in all likelihood your relationship with her won't last long.

[Obelisk]

Obelisk - how beautiful a woman is has almost nothing to do with how enjoyable sex with her would be.

It seems that how much the woman is into you physically is far more important than her being a perfect 10. Again, at least to me, I'd like to have a level of attraction to her. There's a threshold for me.

After 30 years, I don't know my wife's sexual experiences before me. I don't care - if she decided to tell me, I'd listen, but it doesn't matter.

If you're fine with that, the more power to ya. I mean that honestly.

I'm not fine with it.

And I was the best because I listened to her

I've said many times in this thread that a lot of being a "good lover" is pretty much just this.

In my opinion, the reality is there are not many women in their 20's who are virgins, especially if they have gone to college

I know that. I said it's the ideal in general. I'm not a virgin anymore, so I can't expect something of a woman that I am not.

Still there's a difference between a woman who by her 30's has had, let's say, 4 long term relationships, as opposed to most college girls, who (particularly if they were good looking) just wanted to ride as many guys they found hot as they could, and then after a long list of lays, they come and say "ok, now it's time for me to settle down and find a nice, safe guy who will give me a house, kids, and a nice life, even though I'm not really attracted to him physically"

Which scenario do you think is more common?

Whether she has had sex with 100 men or one man it not the criterion. How I feel about her is

If you're happy with that, more power to you. I don't think a woman who's been with 100 men is capable of bonding with a guy the way I want to anymore.

His lack of sexual ability was one reason she divorced him. She knew there was more to sex that his doing her and going to sleep.

This has always baffled me. Why can't they teach their men what they like?

I mean there's a point that I suppose we just wouldn't be compatible. Like that girl that liked porn star style sex action, definitely not my thing. Personally I think a girl that likes to be treated like that has something misfiring up there.

Competition for men is tough for women. It seems as though women in my age group are willing to have sex in order to remain in the game

What's your age group?

Were I you I'd be dating a lot of women. That way you'll have a good idea of what your ideal women is instead of an abstract concept.

I've dated a bunch since my early 20's. My concept isn't as abstract as you believe it to be. I got to know what they wanted, even if I didn't actually sleep with most of them.

I know I won't be the 50 year old that "finally" finds his woman after decades of searching. Screw true love, that is an abstract concept it just took me 12 years to realize it.

[Guest]

Obelisk,

You might want to check around. Most women love to be treated like porn stars in bedrooms & princesses out of bedrooms. This transcends all socioeconomic classes, but it seems to be more common among professional women. Women seem to expect men to take charge in bedrooms and bang their brains out. Might be that I have to expand my research population to confirm my theory holds female orgasms.