[jen1447]

Conviction isn't guaranteed, the law just states that corroboration and resistance aren't required for prosecution.

[Stillness]

The majority of the posts don't even answer the questions mzhk raised. She said nothing about feeling like a rape victim. The main concerns she expressed were being treated like a booty call, her reputation, and men always wanting sex on the first date. I think her perspective matters more than how anybody else feels and what they want to discuss on her thread.

I was wondering something else, mzhk. You said "always." Has something like this happened to you more than once to give you the impression that all men are so aggressive on the first date?

[effy2014]

We had much the same discussion in the "consent" thread a few days ago. She said no a number of times as Jenn points out. Pressuring a woman into giving consent after a firm no -- whether by alcohol, buying lunch, sticking a finger in her or showing your junk -- doesn't make for legal consent. He sexually assaulted her and his conduct after the fact confirms this.

Whether she wants to prosecute the attacker is up to her. If she does not feel traumatized by the event and would feel more victimized by the publicity in a small town (where others may not support her), that is her decision. We were asked to provide what I consider to be a "sanity check" -- is this type of behavior acceptable from a man. I think we all have said NO in one way or another.

[effy2014]

The majority of the posts don't even answer the questions mzhk raised. She said nothing about feeling like a rape victim. The main concerns she expressed were being treated like a booty call, her reputation, and men always wanting sex on the first date. I think her perspective matters more than how anybody else feels and what they want to discuss on her thread.?

I disagree. If you re-read her first paragrap, she wrote what all victims wonder -- did I do something wrong and invite this behavior. Our community was quick to respond with what I believe was the only answer -- she did nothing wrong and the man assaulted her. IMHO, she was looking for that kind of validation.

[Motorguy]

We had much the same discussion in the "consent" thread a few days ago. She said no a number of times as Jenn points out. Pressuring a woman into giving consent after a firm no -- whether by alcohol, buying lunch, sticking a finger in her or showing your junk -- doesn't make for legal consent. He sexually assaulted her and his conduct after the fact confirms this.

Whether she wants to prosecute the attacker is up to her. If she does not feel traumatized by the event and would feel more victimized by the publicity in a small town (where others may not support her), that is her decision. We were asked to provide what I consider to be a "sanity check" -- is this type of behavior acceptable from a man. I think we all have said NO in one way or another.

In my feeling this was complete sexually assault by this guy period, he should be taken off the street. Because the next women may not be so lucky this just makes me sick to read this story.

[Stillness]

We were asked to provide what I consider to be a "sanity check"

Your first post absolutely provided it. It was about the only one that did. I noticed that it was also the only one she bothered to like.

You're second is mistaken. Pressuring someone to consent after they say no is not illegal in and of itself. The problem is when the pressure comes in the form of coercion. Most importantly, even if a case could be made for rape, what are her feelings on it. She was the one that was there, not you or I.

[jen1447]

The majority of the posts don't even answer the questions mzhk raised. She said nothing about feeling like a rape victim. The main concerns she expressed were being treated like a booty call, her reputation, and men always wanting sex on the first date. I think her perspective matters more than how anybody else feels and what they want to discuss on her thread.

She also said this, prior to when most of the alarmed responses began:

Im not complaining... I just wanted to get a clear answer to what to make of what happened yesterday.

Regardless, I frankly find it ridiculous to think that when presented with a fairly clear story of a sexual assault, we would limit our responses to a poster's feelings on whether or not the incident meant the guy only wanted a booty call, or anything else along those lines. sp346's comments about the lack of understanding of what constitutes abuse not being evidence of the lack of abuse clearly have merit. If she had posted that this guy fired a pistol at her head and missed, and that she only wanted to know if he was after a booty call, would we be obligated to speak only to the booty call question? Rape is generally thought to be only second to murder in terms of heinous crimes. To think that we'd ignore it is ludicrous, no matter what she actually asked about.

[Justice]

If you clearly told him to stop, then it was rape. Probably impossible to prosecute.

I have read back through the entire thread - but the first part of this statement IF and CLEARLY seem like they would be important. I am NOT defending rape - but to be fair , there are cases where "don't stop" and DON'T! STOP! are not clearly differentiated.

mzhk, the general consensus seems to be rape. Do you feel like it was rape? I didn't get the impression that you did from your post.

Stillness asked a legitimate question, IMO. When I first read the first post, and even the title of the post, really didn't sound like 'OMG I was sexually assaulted." Although I was trying to figure out how he gets to

"then he sticks his finger inside me.

"

Golly I am not blaming the victim because it sounded very out of line - but unless you are in fear for your life, I cannot imagine a guy not having a broken hand/finger or penis if he did this to me or most of the adult women I know(unless you are drugged, in fear for your life or somehow otherwise compromised or threatened.) The first post made it seem like that you(OP) were torn about not only his behavior but how you felt about it.

"Entire thing was just confusing! "

To me confusing is not the first word that would come to mind if I felt that I was assaulted or rape. just my opinion

I'd ask some of the same questions that Stillness asked, plus it sounded like this was an internal struggle in your head? or did you say all of this out loud?

"I donno what was wrong with me...my head was shouting this is wrong...I was repeating GET out of there"

[Justice]

I guess we could go to another thread where we talk about consent. I would say that please let us be fair to men as well as treat adult women as responsible equals to men.

This thread made me think of those cases - like a Law & Order episode) where if a woman is not 100% sober (of her own doing, not ruffied) a guy who is equally inebriated would be expected to say "may I touch you here" every step along the way.

I do NOT think this applies to the OP case, I am ASKING with respect to other poster's comments. There would be a hell of a lot more men in jail if the standards swing so far that any woman could charge any man without any proof and he is assumed guilty.

ARGH so confusing, because Rape and Sexual assault can be so hard to prove and when they do happen are usually done where there are no witnesses. I guess last (I hope) point is that Stillness is ASKING questions that I also believe are legit questions.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

mzhk,

Our members should go back and read some of your threads, I noticed we totally missed one as well about your gambling/stealing step-father and your emotionally abusive Mother, as you still in that situation? If so, we'll be sure to answer that thread as well, our apologies for missing it.

I remember your other thread regarding the guy on face-book that was desperate to meet you but you declined, as you were only just getting to know him and you were worried you would end up in a ditch somewhere. For the members, as a result after 2 days, he deleted you off face-book and at that point you wanted to know if you did good for not agreeing to being "badgered" to meet with him and we said "yes" you did.

I know I put myself in the position yesterday?

We as women should not have this fear but we off course have to be careful just like you did with the face-book situation.

You said, you were both eating Japanese and he demanded to pay. Sounds more like a date to me when someone does that. But, he then excused himself after 20 minutes. That's not a date, sounds like he wasn't getting anywhere conversational wise and decided to leave.

Can you tell us what happened in that 20 minute "lunch" conversation wise?

I'd say that you felt "wait, he just bought me lunch, doesn't he want to get to know me?" and that's the reason why you choose to "feel" as if you were still hanging out or else you would have caught a cab.

Who knows what goes on in someone's mind. Whilst you may have been thinking that, maybe, he was thinking you liked him.

But, this DOES NOT give him permission to do anything to you. That saying that he was thinking with his "other head" rings true.

What is scary and I can only imagine how you felt at this point, is that he took you to a lake whereby you state "no one was there". I guess I wouldn't have gotten out of the car either if I didn't feel threatened of being murdered, as who knows who was lurking around the lake, or if you did, would he have actually taken things further, harder in a car..

Did you put yourself in this position? You ensured you didn't with the face-book guy I think you have your head screwed on, you're young sweet, you were "hanging out" I get why you dressed the way you did, but that doesn't mean that we don't want guys to "like us" and I think that you felt that you needed that validation instead of him walking away that he "liked you" at least. I think we need to go on gut feeling, I think that because he walked away, I probably would have called that cab but would you now feel that way in the future? To do exactly that? If you didn't feel you were being treated right or that the guy wanted to leave after only being with you for a short period of time, you would now catch that cab.

He put himself in that position. What you did was harmless, possibly dangerous but to you it was harmless what he did was immediately switched to the hang out to the take mode, he put himself in that position and is now scared that you may press charged, it's a small town.. Or talk, which would scare away all the other girls.

I wouldn't accept his apology, I would never speak with him again, I understand you can't speak with your parents and so you come here to your "family" What would I do...

You know, people hate being ignored, totally hate it. That's your first step. He will cringe and wonder and it will eat at him. Don't put yourself in any position whereby he could corner you alone either, from here. If this has troubled you emotionally at the sexual advances go and tell someone, if it has bothered you "only" emotionally feeling like a booty call, catch that cab next time do what you did with the face-book guy, avoid any possibles until you get to know a guy for some time, like you'd like to one day.

But don't beat yourself up either, no man has the right to lay his hands on any woman and if he tried and she said she didn't want him to, in any language that he can understand and he continues and goes against it. HE is wrong.