[DreamP346]

The answer to your question, mzhk, is that we don't all want sex on the first date. Some people (men and women) do. Not all of us are aggressive like that.

Unless you say different, I'm not seeing what everyone else is seeing. You seems to describe a situation in which you reluctantly let him do some stuff you were uncomfortable with but sort of enjoyed, not one in which you were physically overpowered or made to feel afraid or threatened. When you defiantly tell him "no" he stops. Am I right?

Stillness, this is the thinking that can start developing a rape culture. Not all people have assertive personalities. So if somebody is really soft spoken and shy and then they never will be able to say "no" in the matter you describe. Does that mean they can never get raped? Also, regardless of what the victim's perception is, the crime does not change. Many domestic abuse victims do not see what is happening to them as abuse. Does that mean it is not abuse?

Also, no where does mzhk say she enjoyed it. The body can have physical reactions, even while being raped. That does not mean the victim is enjoying it, nor does it mean that the assailant is not committing a crime. mzkk also never let this man do anything to her. She kept saying no, and he kept moving ahead. There is no consent there for it to be "let him do some stuff." It's not like she took his hand and put it down her pants while verbally saying no. A verbal "no" is enough. She doesn't have to start doing karate for it to be a "no."

[mzhk]

To reply to the ladies it wasn't just driving around. He was decent at lunch. We were at a Japanese place. Talking normal like friends. He fought to pay the cheque. It wasn't til we left that it got out of hand. There's nobody around at the lake.

[Stillness]

I asked a mzhk a question, sp. I'm not contributing to rape culture. If I'm wrong she can correct me.

You're assuming a lot and adding stuff she didn't say. Overreactions can be as harmful as not taking a situation seriously enough.

[jen1447]

Stillness, this is the thinking that can start developing a rape culture. Not all people have assertive personalities. So if somebody is really soft spoken and shy and then they never will be able to say "no" in the matter you describe. Does that mean they can never get raped? Also, regardless of what the victim's perception is, the crime does not change. Many domestic abuse victims do not see what is happening to them as abuse. Does that mean it is not abuse?

Also, no where does mzhk say she enjoyed it. The body can have physical reactions, even while being raped. That does not mean the victim is enjoying it, nor does it mean that the assailant is not committing a crime. mzkk also never let this man do anything to her. She kept saying no, and he kept moving ahead. There is no consent there for it to be "let him do some stuff." It's not like she took his hand and put it down her pants while verbally saying no. A verbal "no" is enough. She doesn't have to start doing karate for it to be a "no."

Exactly. ^

- Extremely handys (- mzhk explained that this was putting his hands on her, not being good with home improvement)
- I tell him " Im not ready for whatever it is that your thinking of "
- throws himself at me once again....kissing me in places? then he sticks his finger inside me...starts kissing me again
- I tell him.." I cant I just c an't".
- he whips out his penis
- he leans over and kisses me AGAIN!
- Starts up trying to get back down my pants again! puts his finger in me AGAIN!!
- I was MOANING while telling him GET OUT OF THERE

That's at least two unequivocal nos midstream (in red). The third is unclear since it seems to have come after all his other moves and she didn't specifically state what happened after. The nos need only be nos, you don't have to say anything else or be extra convincing or prove that's what you really mean.

[DreamP346]

I asked a mzhk a question, sp. I'm not contributing to rape culture. If I'm wrong she can correct me.

You're assuming a lot and adding stuff she didn't say. Overreactions can be as harmful as not taking a situation seriously enough.

Assumptions are what makes rape culture. "She wouldn't have gotten raped if she didn't go back to his place." "Kissing him implied that she wanted it." Although you do ask for clarification, you do assume that unless corrected, that is what happened. You assumed she enjoyed it. You assumed she "let him" do stuff. This is a very sensitive area. Not one where you want to make any type of assumptions pointing out the victim's mistake. It is very clear she is distraught by the situation and it is very clear she did not give consent. I do not think those are areas you can argue against. A moan is not a consent.

Let me ask you this. You have always appeared as an honorable man on this website. Would you ever do what this man did? And what would you do to somebody who did this to your wife?

[Motorguy]

Exactly. ^

- Extremely handys (- mzhk explained that this was putting his hands on her, not being good with home improvement)
- I tell him " Im not ready for whatever it is that your thinking of "
- throws himself at me once again....kissing me in places? then he sticks his finger inside me...starts kissing me again
- I tell him.." I cant I just c an't".
- he whips out his penis
- he leans over and kisses me AGAIN!
- Starts up trying to get back down my pants again! puts his finger in me AGAIN!!
- I was MOANING while telling him GET OUT OF THERE

That's at least two unequivocal nos midstream (in red). The third is unclear since it seems to have come after all his other moves and she didn't specifically state what happened after. The nos need only be nos, you don't have to say anything else or be extra convincing or prove that's what you really mean.

Well the first time she said I am not ready for this or I can't do this it should have stop right there period. i guess exposing him self to her she was suppose to be all happy to see his junk I think not that also could be add into the charges as well.

[rcoreyus]

Its a bit difficult to tell from the post how clearly she told him to stop. I don't know if she had an opportunity to safely leave the car after the incident at the first lake. If she did have a chance to leave, then staying with him could be viewed as providing some level of consent. I think that regardless of what really happened, this would make prosecution impossible.

There is an extremely unfortunate problem that some people believe in the "pretend" refusal -saying "no, stop", when their tone and other actions clearly indicate that they want to continue. I don't know if this is at all common. Has anyone done this or had it done to them?

[Stillness]

Assumptions are what makes rape culture.

I took what she said happened to be what happened and asked questions for what was unclear to me. If you want to classify me trying to help someone and asking questions as assuming and contributing to rape culture, that's on you.

[jen1447]

If she did have a chance to leave, then staying with him could be viewed as providing some level of consent. I think that regardless of what really happened, this would make prosecution impossible.

Again, provisions exist:

750.520i Resistance by victim not required.
Sec. 520i.

A victim need not resist the actor in prosecution under sections 520b to 520g.

[rcoreyus]

Yes, but in a case with no physical evidence, if the victim didn't take an opportunity to leave (if there was one, there may not have been), then it would be much more difficult to prove lack of consent.

I don't know for sure what happened, but it sounds like it was probably rape. At the same time, without other evidence I don't see how a jury could convict beyond a reasonable doubt. The defendant is almost certain to say that she agreed to everything. How can they tell who is lying?

Again, provisions exist: