[Motorguy]

Well for me if I was uncircumcised I would not have Donna, in my life she does not like at all like uncircumcised penis period. That would been the start and end of are relationship if i was uncircumcised.

[Euphoric]

I have a thought I want to toss out here. It's so much easier to research and make informed decisions with the internet at our fingertips 24/7. Before the wide world web, parents made decisions based on their doctor's recommendation and family tradition. Maybe they didn't see the need to go against the grain because "the medical professions know what they're talking about." Some of you may remember several months ago I posted a thread beating myself up for not following my gut and getting a second opinion where my son's health was concerned. I did research and came up with basically the same thing the doctor's were telling me, but after following their advice, the prognosis I faced was not good. Thanks to WHF I received support and reassurance that allowed me to see things from an outsider's perspective and gather my bearing. But the fact is I took my son to the doctor, he went through a battery of tests, I thought I was doing "the right thing."

[Romy]

Thank goodness I'm not a man....imagine being with a woman so shallow that depending on if you're cut or not depends on if she will be with you. It's the man not his penis that makes the difference for me. When I've been with men who are cut I do feel a sort of sadness knowing the pain that was inflicted on their innocent and perfect bodies. I've seen enough videos to know the excruciating pain that is caused to the baby especially when separating the foreskin. Gosh I just shuddered just then thinking about it. I find it soooooooo sickening!! I am at peace when I look at my boys and can tell them I gave them the choice - that it was never mine to make. Fortunately they'll be unlikely to ever bring it up because every single boy they know looks intact just like them. Should they want to be circumcised then I have no problem organising it for them.

[Romy]

Interestingly, the circumcision rate in Australia continues to decline and is at a record all time low....what do I make of that? Well I might offend too many people if I put my thoughts down in writing.

Forty plus years ago in Australia pretty much every man was circumcised but this not the case at all in 2014. Pretty much no one is circumcised unless they it's done for "religious" reasons.

[Motorguy]

Thank goodness I'm not a man....imagine being with a woman so shallow that depending on if you're cut or not depends on if she will be with you. It's the man not his penis that makes the difference for me. When I've been with men who are cut I do feel a sort of sadness knowing the pain that was inflicted on their innocent and perfect bodies. I've seen enough videos to know the excruciating pain that is caused to the baby especially when separating the foreskin. Gosh I just shuddered just then thinking about it. I find it soooooooo sickening!! I am at peace when I look at my boys and can tell them I gave them the choice - that it was never mine to make. Fortunately they'll be unlikely to ever bring it up because every single boy they know looks intact just like them. Should they want to be circumcised then I have no problem organising it for them.

Well Romy, it's a preference my wife wanted she been with both and did not like uncircumcised penis. But I was the whole package for her in everything thing that she wanted. But you as a parent made that choice to keep your son from being circumcise it's a choice you made being a parent that's great and your right to do so. I have this feeling about breast implants I think it stupid the women should love what god gave her. But again many women world wide spend thousand of dollars to get bigger boobs for better body self image.Now my two oldest daughters got breast implant, I didn't stop them i just told them they didn't need to but they are both in a line of work it's all about the body image. So they did they was adults and there right to do so. I may disagree with thee decision but in the long run it's not my body it's there's.

[effy2014]

Thank goodness I'm not a man....imagine being with a woman so shallow that depending on if you're cut or not depends on if she will be with you. It's the man not his penis that makes the difference for me. When I've been with men who are cut I do feel a sort of sadness knowing the pain that was inflicted on their innocent and perfect bodies. I've seen enough videos to know the excruciating pain that is caused to the baby especially when separating the foreskin. Gosh I just shuddered just then thinking about it. I find it soooooooo sickening!! I am at peace when I look at my boys and can tell them I gave them the choice - that it was never mine to make.

A bit melodramatic but I get your point. I didn't have to look at videos . . . I have been at many Brit Melahs at which I was the father, godfather and a participant. It put me up close with the circumcision. In fact, I had seen several before my two children had theirs, so I was very informed. The baby is sleeping soundly minutes after the procedure. The wound care is very simple and in a week or two, no effects.

I am at peace with a decision that WAS mine (and my wife's) to make. Parents make choices all of the time for kids . . . many that deal with cosmetic surgical decisions. Again, I find it rather telling that it's the women who are so opposed and shudder to think about the procedure. We have lots and lots of male posters here. Men in the US seem to perpetuate the practice that they have gone through -- not shuddering, not regretting and doing what we think is right.

As for saving the choice for later, to me it is an argument that only mollifies the parent. It is not a realistic choice. The pain increases as do the complications. While there are boys that have the procedure done, it is far safer as a child. In any event, the practice of circumcision will outlive us all as will the ability of parents to decide whether or not to have it performed.

[Stillness]

The pain increases as do the complications. While there are boys that have the procedure done, it is far safer as a child.

Do you all still do it on the 8th day? Do you know about vitamin K and prothrombin levels on that day?

[Romy]

I will never believe for a second that the pain increases with age.....can't even imagine there is scientific proof to back this up. Tearing apart the adhesions sticking the foreskin to the head of the penis has to be as excruciating as hell. Once separation of the foreskin has occurred naturally then already one extremely painful part of this procedure is avoided.

I know a lot of Jewish people and without offending I get that they are taught (won't use the word I really want) that there's little or no pain on day eight (the power of the mind never ceases to amaze me) Making sure the little ones are involved in the whole "ceremony" making sure they think it's all good when really the procedure is not. Nothing will ever change my mind on that. I don't spend day to day getting worked up on the topic - it rarely enters my mind unless brought up like this. And I don't get emotional or whatever has been described for people who believe this practice to be wrong. It saddens me greatly that babies have to endure this when it's not necessary, they are born perfect and I have empathy for them but it in no way takes over my life. I just hope in time more parents see they don't need to do it. The amount of respect I have for the group of Jewish people who refuse to partake in the procedure is immeasurable.

[Stillness]

If your position is based on what you refuse to believe, can or can't imagine and nothing (does "nothing" includes the facts?) can change your mind, then how is that any different from people who circumcise their children without considering it? Neither seems to be based on logic and evidence.

My personal feelings are that it doesn't feel right either. Neither does vaccination. You're injecting some manmade material into your child's body to alter their immune system. My mother is in her 60's and she still has a scar on her arm from some innoculation (smallpox?). I see that same scar on a lot of baby boomers. It doesn't seem right to scar a child for life and do something that will change their bodies permanently. But, when we're talking about what should be done with children and especially judging other people's decisions and culture, it seems to me that feelings, emotion, and what we just believe should take a back seat to logical assessment of the facts.

A lot of inhumanity within the human family has been based on ideas that one culture is superior to another. In hindsight, we often realize that wasn't the case. It seems to be a human failing to assume that their way we do things and our beliefs are not just different, but better.

[effy2014]

If your position is based on what you refuse to believe, can or can't imagine and nothing (does "nothing" includes the facts?) can change your mind, then how is that any different from people who circumcise their children without considering it? Neither seems to be based on logic and evidence.

******************

A lot of inhumanity within the human family has been based on ideas that one culture is superior to another. In hindsight, we often realize that wasn't the case. It seems to be a human failing to assume that their way we do things and our beliefs are not just different, but better.

Stillness --

I appreciated the thread hoping that there could be a dispassionate discussion. However, that is impossible with people who cannot even conceive that the other side has valid reasoning. Instead, some have to resort to belittling the religious beliefs of others, disrespect those who reach the opposite conclusions and ignore some science but claim that their science is the only one which can be believed.

Your last post is a fitting end to the discussion.