[kaylar]

Bluemoon, exactly how do you want me to sugarcoat this?
From post one...(if you read through the posts from the
beginning)...which apparently was made within 24 hours
of the husband leaving Drama...there was no question in
my mind of the situation.

I used examples, I tried to make it clear that the Husband
had completed his affair and had gone, and it was time
for Drama to contact and attorney and see what kind of
Maintenance she could gain for her child before he moved
most of the property from his name into that of his wife
or others.

Every single word I have posted is honest, and true.
I don't see any use it would have to lie to Drama, or
cast the reality of the situation into any other lights.

As an Attorney it is your duty to advise your client
properly. Not to sugarcoat, lie, deceive, pretend or
drift from reality.

You have a duty to tell your client what the likely
outcome of a matter may be, and you can be brought
up on charges before your professional oversight body
if you do not warn a client of the dangers, sanctions,
etc. of every single matter brought before you.

From Drama's first post you were left no doubt that
she was having an affair with a married man, who had
never made any attempt at all whatsoever to divorce
his wife, and that three years had elapsed from the
commencement of the affair until his abrupt departure.

Maybe the first time I came across such a situation
my inexperience or need to pet the client might have
led me to insipid placating remarks. But after five
years, when one sees the pattern, when it doesn't
matter the colour, race, religion, economic status,
etc, of the parties, it is as if this is a classical
ballet, in which all the steps are cheoreographed.

When you begin to practice you will learn the difference
between being an Attorney and a social worker, between
properly advising a client and playing to their desires.

This may be the first time you are seeing such a
situation. Stick around. By next year you'll see two
more, and both will be almost identical to this one,
and the posters will be just as certain that their
case is different and he's 'coming back', 'his family
is keeping him from me,' 'he loves me', etc.

Men have, from the discovery of adultery, learned that
women need only be told, "i love you", to engage in
sexual connection. They don't need a lawyer's letter,
a divorce petition, proof that the wife is committed to
a mental institution or evidence of separation.

If a Man says; "My marriage has been over a long
time," "My wife and I are separated," "I can't get a
divorce because of my children," or any of the usual,
any intelligent woman puts on her running shoes.

[Drama28]

Yeah Bluemoon!!

Okay, I have a lot to say and I'm not so sure if I should say it all. Well, first of all...YEAH for Bluemoon82!!! For once someone who can try to get her point across to Kaylar from a Lawyer perspective, but still agree with me! I totally agree with the fact that you shouldn't "sugarcoat" or lie about things to people, especially if you are their lawyer. That is beside the point at this moment. First, you aren't MY lawyer, and I did/do want honest advice, but at least learn to phrase it a little better. I also understand that being a lawyer is a lot of work and after a while you prob. see so many cases like this or like other things ex. abuse, theft, drugs,ect. that you are trying to defend, but you get desensitized to it since after a lot of that they prob. all "look" the same to you. That is something that is prob. bound to happen, like in any job, but I really think it is in the way you present yourself that makes all the difference. Like Bluemoon said, you can still try to "empathize" with someone without lying to them, showing a little sympathy doesn't make you a bad lawyer and doesn't mean you aren't telling them the whole truth either, it can just be done with more "tact." It is just like a really great doctor with the worst BEDSIDE Mannor on the planet!! Just because you are telling someone that they only have like 24 hours to live doesn't mean that you have to come in the room and be like "WEll, tough luck man, sucks to be you cause you'll be luck to get like a day or so more, better live it up while ya can ***-hole!" Instead you could say "I'm so sorry Mr. Jones but unfortunately your cancer has spread and you prob. only have a few days left. I'll leave you alone with your family and if there is anything I can do please let me know." You could be the best dr. in the world, but if you have a horrible bedside mannor nobody will like you and want to be your patient. Making people's lives worse by being insensitive, or making it sound like they did it to themselves and they deserve it is NOT okay by any means! It would be like you saying "Oops, Mr. Smith sorry you were so stupid and didn't use protection while having sex, or using drugs and now you have AIDS! Ha ha! YOu should have known better and not been so dumb! Too bad for you! Tough luck, enjoy your few months/years left!" You act like what I did by having an affair with a married man makes me deserve this horrible ending! Kaylar, like in your last paragraph you say that "Any intelligent woman would run" is saying that I am uninitelligent and basically that I "got what was coming to me". Thanks a lot for making me feel like an even bigger piece of **** than I already do Kaylar! You may be a good lawyer, but I'm glad you aren't mine. I don't mean to get hostile or mean, but I already feel like I have been disgarded like yesterday's newspaper and thrown in the trash by someone I fully trusted and believed in more than anything! My whole life has been flipped upside down and has been shaken to the core! I don't even know if anything in the last few years were real or lies or both, I don't believe ANYONE anymore and you are making it sound like I just should have known better and not got involved in the first place. It is a little too late for that and telling me I am stupid does nothing to help, that is not just being honest of not sugarcoating it it is just plain mean. I am trying my best to make it through each and every day and take care of my daughter even though her dad isn't here. I love that little girl more than life itself and no matter what happens with her dad and myself I will do anything to make sure she knows that she is loved by me and her sisters and that I will always be here for her! If he screws us out of money, assets, a life knowing/being with him, ect. I guess I have no choice in the matter, it is all in his hands right now. I have to take it as it comes, I have done my part to try and do what I have to do for her sake like the DNA test, filing papers, ect. I will continue to fight for our well-being and if that isn't what I should be doing than I don't know what to do. I am trying my best and hoping for the best no matter what that ends up being. Only time will tell and I can't fix the fact that he has part of our future in his hands and his alone. I don't care if you think I am dillusional about thinking that just maybe...a little shred of hope says he could come back after the DNA test comes back and she gets mad. Part of me doesn't want him back, I am torn and the wounds are fresh, it has been over a month, but it would have been our 3 year anniversary on Sun. (2 days ago). It is hard not to think about things. I can't think about how the last 3 years of my life could have been all lies, I don't think I could ever trust anybody again, even myself, I need to keep my head up for as long as possible so I don't crash! I am a woman and a mother and that means that I CAN"T just run away or pretend my children don't exist, and I woudn't even if I could, but I need to be here for them and keeping a shred of hope that keeps me sane is all I have left. Thanks to Tinkerbell and Bluemoon and others for your support and I'm sorry if I just frustrate you Kaylar because I am just a stupid, typical mistress living a lie and paying the price for it but being in denial. I can't help the past and I can only hope the future gets better. I am just trying to survive. This is all I know how to do right now. Sorry if that isn't good enough.

[tinkerbell930]

Well put!!!

Drama, I am so proud of what you said. In life the only thing that truly matters is how you feel and handle things. Nobody can tell you how to think, feel, chage, act, decide on your future, BUT YOU! I think you are doing all you can and you are doing just fine! I am not sugarcoating anything, I do feel for you and your daughter. No matter how he turns out to be, in the long run you will be fine. You are going through each stage the way you need to. I do think Kaylar is desensitized to human emotions. She said in one of her responses she does feel bad, but I don't believe that. She comes across as the doctor with the bad manners. Every response I have read from her is a story about someone she knows and at the end the world is a horrible place and the woman in the story is a laughing stock of the town. All marriages and relationships are treated as a failure and there are no happy endings in her world. I have seen a ton of friends and myself go through really hard times and through it all I helped them keep their heads up and held them when they cried. I never thought the worst for them and I never voiced any doom. Things could look horrible from the outside but to lose faith in love is horrible. God doesn't give up on us when we are doing things he doesn't approve of. He loves us and forgives our sins. You are being judged by a person that has no love for human kind. Bluemoon sounds like a person with a big heart and when she makes it to being a lawyer she will make a darn good one. Being a cold heartless ***** does NOT make a good ANYTHING. I had a friend that was so much like Kaylar and she had no faith in anything....not God, not love. Her relationships aren't great and she hurts a lot of people with her words. She feels self righteous and superior and I would rather live with my life with stars in my eyes and optimistic that good can come from bad and love prevails. That doesn't mean I think this man will come running back with roses and diamonds, it doesn't mean he won't wake up and realize the huge mistake he has made...but you will have love and you will trust again. You have too good of a heart for that not to happen!!!! I am so glad you wrote to us. I am also glad that you filed the paperwork you need and are letting things happen on that part. If you were to make it ugly and start going after "all the assests" it only makes it look like your daughter is a pawn in a game. That is never good for anyone involved. Trust me on that! You have fire in you! Keep it up!

[kaylar]

Let's not go too far here.

From the beginning, everything I said came to pass.
It was hard to read it, and Drama, you have to re read
your posts and see how you denied everything I said.

I knew it was going to be as bad as it is.
I told you it would be.
It is not my typing that made it bad.
If I never posted, or posted, "I'm so sorry for you."
What use is that?

I used examples, so that you would be able to
empathise with other women whom I've represented
because I know both sides of the matter.

I've had women who waited A YEAR thinking he'd come
back. Do you know how hard it is to get Maintenance and
a DNA test and a Court to be sympathetic after a year?

Imagine if you were still thinking he was coming back...
and had done nothing?

At least you'll be able to get Maintenance for your little
girl, and if anything I posted made you a bit stronger, a
bit more willing to believe that he wasn't coming back,
then I did well.

Imagine a year from now, meeting a woman where you
were the night he left, a woman who believes he's coming
back, it isn't over. There is no nice way to tell her he isn't.
And it doesn't help her to prolong the fantasy, especially
when there is a child.

I know male lawyers who act for husband's who make sure
the woman gets next to nothing. And has to beg for it.

At least in the times I've appeared for the husband I've
made sure that the husband did more than the Court
Ordered.

In one, I've had the husband pick up the child every day
after school and keep the child until the mother got home
from work.

My doctor has no beside manner. He will tell a patient that
he is dying. I like him because I want to hear it straight.

The next man in your life will be an open book. You won't
allow any dark corners. You won't take what he says on
face value. You'll keep your suspicions to yourself, of course,
but there won't be this kind of trauma.

When you look back you will see the points where you should
have been suspicious. But Husbands are very good at fooling
OW. That's why I told you that you were not alone. That
there were many many women who went through the exact
same thing, and as I said, it is text book, because it is almost
always the same stories the same lies said in the same voice.

You were innocent, you were trusting, and you just never
stopped to consider. It happens.

[tinkerbell930]

Drama-just saying a quick hello! Hope all is well. I really enjoy reading the problems out there and the kind responses from most of the women out there. Essentially this site is for ladies to post on and not feel attacked or ridiculed, I think that is lost in some situations. Nobody should be made to feel like a "case" or "statistic". It seems that money and revenge are the driving force of some women, but a woman that has her heart in something just cares about the best outcome for everyone. I am sure you have been raising your girls just fine without a man. Many strong and proud women raise children from men that choose not to be there. They aren't looking at what they can get from them or take from the other children he may have, they just love the kids they have and provide for them. I am not saying a man shouldn't help financially with the care, but it seems too many women out there use the child as a paycheck or excuse to sit at home and collect welfare for life. Then they complain about how the man "owes" them everything instead of taking control of their own lives. You are not a victim in this, neither is your daughter. You will both be fine, no matter what monetary "maintenance" is set. I get so sick of hearing the post of how you have to "go after" the man's wallet and take him for everything he has and make sure you get everything the other kids have and make him penniless. Yes, there are men out there that hide and cheat and lie to get out of the responsiblity of the child...so what? How many women abort, put up for adoption or KILL to get out of the responsibility? Men can't choose what a woman can, they just HAVE to pay no matter what. Drama, I hope you don't take this as an attack on you. I think you care about Don and don't want to make life hell on him as far as money goes. You just want the best for your daugther. And that is a good thing...trying to take everything he works for to leave him with nothing will not make you feel any better. You aren't that kind of woman. I can tell that. You just want what is fair. Anyway, sorry about my little tangent, it's just when I hear another woman going for blood and money against another person it makes me sick. Life is too short to make sure "you make that person pay dearly with money". Being ruled by that is ugly and doesn't ever solve the hurt you feel. Some people just get off on that kind of revenge.

[Drama28]

Responses...

Okay, here are a few responses to the last few posts... Kaylar, first of all I did not deny any of the things you said in your posts...I simply said that not all cases in life are "typical". There are always things that could throw off your "typical" senario. Saying that all affairs are the same and end the same is complete BS. I know that there is prob. kinda a template that things happen in certain ways at times, but not always. I never denied that it could happen or that you were "wrong". That is not what I was trying to say. That would be like saying all pregnancies are the exact same and this is what to expect. WHATEVER!! All women and all pregnancies are different, even diff. pregnancies for the same women can be completely different, I know that for a fact!! By the way....just out of curiosity Kaylar, do you have kids and are/were you ever married? I just get the vibe that you are a divorced woman with no kids and a complete focus on your job. I could be way off, but you don't seem to act like you like people very much. I don't mean to be mean, but maybe you have just done your job too long. I know being a lawyer can make you kind of numb to things after you see enough of it, but I hope that you still have faith in humanity, because not having that or losing faith in love like tinkerbell said is a horrible thing! I know I will make it through this **** no matter what and I refuse to believe that life is all **** like this! Yes I was innocent and trusting and didn't want to think anything like this could happen, nobody wants to think that, and certainly wouldn't be in a relationship if they thought it would go like this, would they?? I have done all I can do to protect myself and my daughter and now it is on his shoulders. And, yes, if you would have said I am sorry for you or anything like that it would have helped. It would have made me feel like you weren't so cold and just informative...that is just too harsh for a person that is going through that just can't deal with it, it doesn't do good, it just makes them feel worse about themselves. You don't have to sugercoat things, but making them sound a little more gentle or at least like you might have any sympathy/empathy would have been nice. I know you like things put blunty, that is obvious, but most people, me included are very emotional and if I/we had a dr. that was that brutally honest I would cry and then never see that stupid ****ing ******* again! Put it like it is, but you don't need to go overboard. Okay, enough of that crap.... As for you Tinkerbell, thank you again for your help. I also totally agree on not acting like a complete ***** and trying to get revenge by trying to take all of his money. That would serve no purpose. I have done things trough the court and I am hoping for the best. There is nothing I can do if he "sells all of his stuff or transfers it" ect. I guess then he is a complete *** and I will realize that and my daughter and I deserve better. I want to get what she deserves and that is all. I do want it to hurt their wallet every month because of the way he has acted, but that is just how people feel when they get screwed I guess. Making him and his wife not be able to forget about us would be great, but nothing will make me really feel better, so what is the point. Money isn't gonna buy happiness and neither is being mean. Well, that is about it for now. Just waiting for my DNA results to get back and he is set to go in I think next week so in a few weeks things will get rolling I guess. I know that I can do nothing else but wait...it sucks, but that is life. I will continue with my life and hope for the best while planning on the worst. I really need to keep trying to look up because it is a long way down and I don't wanna go there! Thanks again for your help, I'll keep checking in.

[kaylar]

Okay, here are a few responses to the last few posts... Kaylar, first of all I did not deny any of the things you said in your posts...I simply said that not all cases in life are "typical". There are always things that could throw off your "typical" senario. Saying that all affairs are the same and end the same is complete BS.

When an affair begins and the Husband makes no effort to obtain
a divorce despite protestations of 'love' for the OW I can pretty
much tell you how it will end.

Basically, if you were living with John but found yourself in love with
Tom, you would sever the relationship with John because you simply
would not wish to waste time when you could be with Tom.

As soon as I heard he was 'going back' to his wife, I knew he had
never left his wife. Hence, you would be the odd man out.

I know that there is prob. kinda a template that things happen in certain ways at times, but not always. I never denied that it could happen or that you were "wrong". That is not what I was trying to say. That would be like saying all pregnancies are the exact same and this is what to expect. WHATEVER!! All women and all pregnancies are different, even diff. pregnancies for the same women can be completely different, I know that for a fact!! By the way....just out of curiosity Kaylar, do you have kids and are/were you ever married? I just get the vibe that you are a divorced woman with no kids and a complete focus on your job. I could be way off, but you don't seem to act like you like people very much. I don't mean to be mean, but maybe you have just done your job too long. I know being a lawyer can make you kind of numb to things after you see enough of it, but I hope that you still have faith in humanity, because not having that or losing faith in love like tinkerbell said is a horrible thing!

Actually, I've been in a relationship for 27 years, have three children and
one grandchild. All viable pregnancies are slightly different, however all
carry the child in the same place, over approximately the same time, so
that where length and severity of labour will differ for each, there will be
a labour, it will not be pleasant. You might have serious morning sickness
or mild, but there will be some point where either you throw up, or can't
stomach food you loved, etc.

In short, if a woman says she's pregnant I can give a ballpark 'figure' as
to what she will experience. Pregnancies are not so widely diverse that
there is no comparison or set of parameters.

The same with affairs. The man who leaves his wife and moves in with
the other woman and proceeds to divorce his wife, is one particular scenario
in which it is clear that the marriage is over and that the OW will be the next
Mrs.Husband. The man who goes back and forth has no intention of leaving
his wife. If he did, he would. Slavery is over.

I know I will make it through this **** no matter what and I refuse to believe that life is all **** like this! Yes I was innocent and trusting and didn't want to think anything like this could happen, nobody wants to think that, and certainly wouldn't be in a relationship if they thought it would go like this, would they?? I have done all I can do to protect myself and my daughter and now it is on his shoulders. And, yes, if you would have said I am sorry for you or anything like that it would have helped. It would have made me feel like you weren't so cold and just informative...that is just too harsh for a person that is going through that just can't deal with it, it doesn't do good, it just makes them feel worse about themselves. You don't have to sugercoat things, but making them sound a little more gentle or at least like you might have any sympathy/empathy would have been nice. I know you like things put blunty, that is obvious, but most people, me included are very emotional and if I/we had a dr. that was that brutally honest I would cry and then never see that stupid ****ing ******* again! Put it like it is, but you don't need to go overboard. Okay, enough of that crap....

In my jurisdiction, if one does not make it clear to the client the worst
case scenario, if one doesn't put it hard and cold on the line without
leading the client into a false sense of security, one will be disbarred.

It is as simple as that.

You have to hear it straight from someone, and I'm sure your lawyer
must inform you what the possibilities are. Many of them not so wonderful.
One is not saying that you take him for every cent, one is saying that you
want your child to have a life comparable to those of his children of the
marriage.

[tinkerbell930]

Drama, I gotta tell you....I have worked with a lot of lawyers (both prosecuting and defending) AND a few doctors in my life....I don't have an esteemed degree in anything, but I can tell you that in all my dealings with lawyers (the office I work in now has one next door to us too and he is super nice-divorce lawyer and mediator) and doctors, all of them have tons of humanity and TACT. I have heard the way they have talked to victims, criminals, patients and office staff....in all the dealings I have had with both professions, NOT ONE OF them were as cold hearted and "sterile" as kaylar has been. And I am 100% positive that none of them would be disbarred nor have their medical license taken from them if they had spoken with compassion to anyone they were dealing with. I was always proud of the way things were handled by these "professional, degreed people". People with heart and compassion are the ones that people want to continue business with. Not blunt and rude with an arm load of case histories and no emotion for them. So, with that said, I don't want to comment further about her opinion or facts. Everything we say just gets shot down and ridiculed. We are being treated like children that need to be scolded by an overbearing mother. You need friends and support and that is what most of us are here for. I also know each day is tough for you and wish I could help those days go faster ahead to that one day when the relief is here for you. Hopefully the warm weather helps your outlook a little. Kids can go outside more and play...swimming and parks are fun. I love to read for hours, it takes me far away from my daily problems...and trust me, I have a few of those myself....we are all out here doing the best we can with what we have! Take care and please keep letting me know how you are. Did you ever get my email address? It would be nicer to email back and forth and not have to worry about what other comments will be hurled.

[Drama28]

Again, thanks Tinkerbell.

Okay, not much time to respond today, but here goes. Yes Kaylar I am a very smart woman even if you don't seem to agree, and I do get your point. Although I disagree strongly about your opinion, especially regarding your thoughts on people being not "honest" enough and getting disbarred for it, that is just rediculous! I am doing all I possibly can to get her the same way of living that her 2 1/2 sisters and 1 1/2 brother have received of the years growing up; although in most respects I don't have any control over that and just can hope and pray. Anyway, that being said, I want to again thank Tinkerbell for you continuing support and concern. I completely agree with you and am so greatful for you being here for me. I have known a lot of dr. and lawyers in my life also, hell my ex-father-in-law is a judge, none of which have shown such a lack of human compassion. I agree it is good to be truthful in every way and present the facts with all possiblities even the worst case sanario; but you do not have to be heartless and totally cold to your client or patient. There are a lot of things that you agree to when you take on the responsibility to be a dr. or lawyer, like honesty, respect and patient/client confedentiality, but being mean isn't one of them. I certainly hope that Kaylar doesn't take her office job back to her home with her at night. That would be a horrible tragidy for her spouse/partner, kids, grandkids and all of her other friends and family. I have known way too many people who spend all of their time working on "work" and never really have their own actual "life" to partake in. I'm sure Kaylar is a great person, don't get me wrong, but the way things are being said are just too crazy not to respond to. I hope that everyone that we all deal with in life are at least given the same amount of respect that we hope to get from everyone else. Do unto others as you wish to be done to you. Not a difficult concept, just sometimes easier said than done, trust me, I know. Anyway, I suppose I should get going. Same stuff here, our DNA should be back w/in the next week and he should be getting his done this next week. Oh well, that's life I guess. By the way....Tinkerbell, I did email you a few weeks ago when you originally posted your email address. I must have typed it in wrong or something...here is my email if you want to contact me that way. I don't mind going here, but to be actual friends it might be easier to email instead of going here and having someone critique our thoughts and actions, at least the ones we don't want critiqued. Yes, Kaylar, I know that is what the website is for, that is why I added that last part of that sentance. Here is my email Tinkerbell k_4beautifulgirlz*yahoo.com Well, have a good weekend all and hope to hear from you guys later! Thanks again, even Kaylar you are intiteled to your opinion. Sorry if my spelling sucks, I am extremely tired. Bye!

[Stealthkitty]

Drama, I have read your posts and have to say something out of concern for you. First, I have to tell you that what you are going through is nothing new or out of the ordinary. Like the preacher said, there is nothing new under the sun.

Though you don't want to hear it and you accuse Kaylar is being unsympathetic, she has told you the truth about this man and his treatment of you. You may say that she doesn't know him; she doesn't have to. The M -O is the same for all such predators. That's right; he is a predator. This type usually moves in on a young woman when she is at her most vulnerable. They come onto her with a sob story about how their wife doesn't understand them and how they have for the first time found love (with you). They even propose and give a wedding date. When that date comes and goes, they often give some bogus excuse for putting it off.

You situation is troubling because there is an innocent child in the mix. It is painfully obvious that he doesn't care about her or you. As her mother, it is your duty and obligation to put her welfare above your feelings or his. You should proceed to hire an attorney to get some child support for her. If you cannot afford one, check with your local department of human services. They will assist you in your child support collection efforts.

You also need to ask what sort of example are you setting for your children; to see you go on this way about a married man. I don't mean to be unkind; but you have to face the truth. It's not just you mourning the loss of a relationship. Look at how it's affecting the kids.

Kaylar gave you some sound advice and has attempted to open your eyes. Reading your story is very painful. In an effort to help you shortcircuit the sadness you are feeling, she just laid it out for you in a clinical unemotional way. The truth is not always pretty and somethings cannot be sugarcoated. Having said that, it is unfair of you to accuse her of being unfeeling. Your anger is misplaced.