[Sailor_67]

Tough-Love

Ok, I'm prepared for what I'm about to say to be poorly received, but I assure you, it is my honest opinion, with your best wishes at heart.

Take the message on board, or discard it, up to you.

Your running faster and faster around in circles like a spaniel chasing it's tail

... This is a classic 50's marriage role reversal.
She is the Alpha female and you are the tragic doormat with an entrenched victim mentality... battered husband syndrome...


I'm sure she's craving for you to act with a bit of moxie, spunk and decisiveness (perhaps like the man she married?)

Why have we had a sexless marriage since we got married 20 years ago if her sex drive is what it is? Why am I the only one going to sex therapy, when she's banging it out solo twice a week? ...So the counselor gave me some coaching and then worksheets to get me "grounded"

The real question is again... why are you playing the victim... stand up to her! She can't make you go to counseling any more than you can make her. At some point you must have agreed the problem is all about you. If so, own that decision, if not, send her to counseling.

It may be that she is so skilled a manipulator, that she's able to convince the therapist the issues begin and end with you...

I mean come on, she's denying sex for 20yrs, all the while hiding regular masturbation sessions from you, and sending you to counseling for your masturbation “problem”, and the counselor gives YOU coaching and worksheets...!

“she stopped wanting sex and I became sullen and withdrawn. I've been unhappy ever since.”

...the classic Passive / Aggressive response, when one partner in a relationship wields an overwhelmingly powerful position, the only perceived option is to become sullen, moody and withdrawn. Unfortunately, this only distances the other partner more.

I am at the point where if I'm talking with her I'm just expecting to be told what to do, or what not to do, or how stupid I am (those are not her words). I'm gun shy about even having a conversation with her because of her extremely assertive personality. We've been over this in counseling, but I'm still gun shy.

...Read between the lines of what you're saying and listen to your choices of words and phrases. “told what to do”, “how stupid I am”, “her extremely assertive personality”, “I'm gun shy” Even if she does still love you, . You're a man, not a helpless child, start acting like one.

“Yes, you're right. It's been so bad for so long that I am angry, resentful, hurt, confused, I just want to freaking scream. Scream and jump up and down and throw a fit. Something I've never done as an adult. It's that bad.”

She has 20yrs of running rings around you with cruel manipulative mind games, so... do it, jump up and down, throw a few plates. It's ok to show someone your ****ed off when they've mistreated and disrespected you. What, are you going to wait for another 20yrs?

“Something I've never done as an adult”

. That's too bad, older does not necessarily mean wiser. Now, kids would have a big screaming fight and be back playing happily the next day, better friends than ever. It's only with the tyranny of adulthood, that we feel compelled to be un-naturally measured, rational, reasonable and bottle things up (for an eventual catastrophic explosion).

Right before spring break we agreed that we should separate. She contacted a lawyer and I was in the process of finding one. A few days later she was, in her own words, "practically begging" me to stay together and give it another shot. I gave in because I was too weak to say no.

Again she got her way, right to the precipice of divorce, and you buckled “I was too weak to say no”. I'm not saying divorce is the option, but it may be a final sub-conscious plea from her for you to be an equal partner, not a dependent (very unsexy).

Your only hope is to rapidly grow a backbone and let her see you have one.

If becoming assertive fixes the situation, wonderful. If you find out she is secretly not (or no longer) attracted to men. That's hard, but at least you know and if so, it's pretty cruel to manufacture a scenario where it's all about you if this was the case.

The only unsustainable thing you can do is keep doing what you've been doing, and being the way you've been being.

[stressed]

You should definitely try for vacation without family. It's amazing how much it can improve one's relationship.

I also thought it would not change anything, it's just what people say, but it was actually after a week's trip away that we started sorting our most serious problems after years of arguments. We reached the point of sitting down for an open talk, in new surroundings, just us, and said we'd either honestly try to fix things or end it all on the last day of the trip. Because when you are on a trip you already get to see something new, you realize how much you want to be with the person you are, if you can make it without your SO or if you need him/her around because s/he makes you happier. Just you and her in a place you haven't been before. It will make you both open up more. Do try it.

[MiniVanMan]

Thanks for the pep talk StillLearnin. I'm having some pretty big ups and downs day by day. Sometimes I feel that it's still hopeless. Other times I'm encouraged. Last night I had a stressful talk with my wife where I was trying my hardest to be understanding and all I got was defensiveness in return. So yeah, right now I don't feel so great.

Our couples counselor says my wife and I should go on a vacation with out the kids and without any friends or family. Just the two of us. Maybe we can work that in. It's going to be a busy summer.

[StillLearnin]

It's great that you are seeing things clearer now, and that you decided to stop seeing the counselor. He was being a destructive force to your marriage.

My situation is an ongoing work in progress, much like yours. My wife never even realized that she was neglecting my needs. It was like she was living her life and not paying any attention to ours (which includes me). She was happy, so that's all that mattered to her. We recently had some troubles with bank fraud, where all of our accounts were wiped out. They cleaned us out. Thankfully the bank caught it and credited all the funds back. It was after spending time at the bank and getting our new accounts set up when the fallout occurred. She was stressed about it all, as I was, rightfully so. It's such a violation for that to happen. She asked me to help her with getting some pictures printed out (through the Kodak website which prints at a local Target, which is really nice). I had plans for the rest of the day, up until our daughters soccer game that evening. So I said, ok, if I can get to it, because I have a lot to do this afternoon too. She responds with something like "I feel that I can never ask you to do anything." Long story short, in my defense, I feel like that's all I've ever done for her and the family. "Everything." Even without having to be asked. I've spent my life doing things for her because I love her and our children. Not because I was asked or begged to. She struck me to the core of who I am. We didn't talk until the next day. I was so hurt by that simple statement which was a direct result of her being stressed out, and she didn't mean it at all in the way it came out.

But what I was getting to relates to your situation about forgetting the past and working on the present. Looking forward, not back. I struggled with this as well. Up until the last hurtful exchange of words which I just described. She's been asking me to forget the past and just look at the positives of the here and now, and our new future together. I have so much resentment built up that I have been struggling to let the past go. (The demons I mentioned in another post) She finally saw how hurt I have been as a result of that, and begged me to forgive her for the pain she's put me through. Since I finally saw that she understood me, I could finally let the past go. She finally understood. But it took a very hurtful conversation to bring that out. Hopefully most of my demons have been released and I can live peacefully now.

What I'm saying to help you is that maybe you won't be able to right away. And that there probably will be some hurt ahead for both of you. But you can work through it, and find that inner peace, and let it all go. Hang in there. You are on the right track.

[sourpuss]

Wow, that's a huge step in the right direction. Sounds like both of you are past the anger stage and ready to start healing. That's wonderful.

[MiniVanMan]

Milestone

I think my personal crisis has about ended. My wife was out of town over the weekend, and I had a lot of time to think. Three things came together in my mind that helped bring me to a new state of clarity:

1) Having the opportunity to talk it out with my wife, as we did last weekend on our nature walk.
2) Stop seeing my wife as an adversary.
3) Getting out from under my sex therapist.

I discussed our nature walk discussion in a previous post. Won't go into it again, but the next day we had a counseling session and our counselor was not pleased with me. I understand that bombarding my wife with questions put her on the defensive, but it was necessary for me. I needed to talk and had been told that I couldn't by our counselor. But I couldn't keep it bottled up inside any longer and I feel this helped me tremendously, just knowing I was being heard, that I had a voice, and that I mattered.

In the counseling session last week my wife said something that took a while to sink in. I was talking about my belief that if I agree to move on and stop dwelling on the past, then she wins. She's had her way for 20 years and I've been miserable, and I'll be saying it's all okay. No problem. 20 years of sex down the drain? That's fine, I'm okay with it. Her response was that if I could concentrate on the present then we BOTH win. Our marriage will be heading in the right direction and we can work toward a happy future together, which of course makes logical sense.

I don't know exactly how this all works in her head, but I'm coming to terms with the notion that my wife truly was clueless about my needs all these years. She just didn't know, despite the fact that for me I couldn't have been more clear, that my needs weren't being met. She didn't know that sex once a month was way below average for married couples, so she never thought our sexual relationship was unhealthy. She didn't equate her own masturbating with anything sexual, so it had no bearing on our sex life. All those things I had viewed as complete disregard for my needs and feelings. A complete dismissal of me personally. I have to believe that wasn't the case. She says it wasn't, so I have to believe her. I just have to. And so I have to believe we're in this together. She didn't mean to hurt me, so it's not productive to think of her as the enemy. I have to think of us as a team if this is going to work.

I don't think I've talked much about my sex therapist, but let me just say that the guy is a crackpot. He pigeonholed me from day one as a sex addict without anything more than a cursory interview. Unlike all my previous individual and couples counselors, he didn't ask leading questions that made me think and come to my own conclusions. Rather, he'd form an opinion or diagnosis and then push his agenda on me. He'd TELL me (instead of ASKING me) what I wanted, who I should be, how I should behave, and what sex is. For him, any sex that isn't a cosmic spiritual moment is indefensible and degrading to those involved. He backpedaled time and time again on his diagnoses. He waffled. He pushed. He routinely dismissed me out of hand. I left every session feeling agitated and attacked. Want to know the icing on the cake? He recommended homeopathic (i.e., fake) remedies for my prostate problems.

I've told my wife about him and how he makes me feel, and she's been understanding but hoped I would continue seeing him. She thought he might be able to help me gain insight into why I behaved so "irrationally" to the news of her masturbating. Last night we talked about him again after having had another session on Friday and again leaving in a very agitated state of mind. I told her that I needed to quit seeing him, that it was just making things worse. I felt that our couples counselor could help me with any sexual issues I might be having, and she agreed. She could tell the sex therapist was just making things worse, and agreed that he was a flaky, rigid, inflexible therapist who had inappropriately lumped me in with the out of control sex addicts whose lives were ruined by their behavior. I was relieved to hear her say that she's 100% behind me dumping him.

Sorry, yet another long-winded blathering post my MiniVanMan, but I feel much better now that I've accomplished the three things I've talked about. My wife seemed pleased also, and that makes me feel good. I'm hopeful for the future.

Just a bit of good news for a change.

[MiniVanMan]

WildChild, that exchange about the blue sky just cracked me up. Our counselor actually did start to do that just yesterday. I had a reaction on my face to something my wife said, and it set her off. The counselor brought everything to a halt and asked my wife what that look on my face meant. Of course she was dead wrong. She thought I was belittling her but the counselor saw exactly what I was showing, and it was simply that I was puzzled. But my wife saw an attack.

I did have my own counselor until the end of March when insurance changed and she went out of network. I still feel good, overall, with our couples counselor and plan to see her by myself again.

Rcoreyus, my wife has said several times recently that she wants a good sex life with me. She knows it's important to me and she enjoys it when it's good. But she admits that there's a lot of baggage keeping it from happening on a regular basis. We actually have had sex recently, and she said that in the last 5 or 6 weeks sex has been better than usual because I've been more open and honest and talkative with her than anytime in, well, as long as she can remember.

I like the letter writing idea WildChild. I may try that. Thanks.

I appreciate the invitation to write about the good things rather than venting. I'd like to take our counselor's advice and concentrate on the good stuff. So from now on, no whining or complaining. I'll either write about the good, or at least straight up facts. But no venting. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks to everyone. I really mean that.

- MiniVanMan

[rcoreyus]

I agree with the therapist that dwelling on the past isn't a good idea. I don't think it matters (or is even really defined) who is at fault. What matters is what happens now and in the future. Everyone wants to fix your marriage. The problem is that you think that a good sex life is important for a happy marriage and your wife does not.

Maybe at the next session, just try to make it clear. You can't be happy in a marriage without an active good sex life. If your wife can't be happy with one, then I don't think there is anything to be done.

[WildChild]

I don't know VanMan, this therapist sounds a bit biased. I'll be first in line to say that assigning blame isn't very productive but going into complete denial as your wife is, isn't productive either. My take is that you aren't feeling heard at all and it can be very difficult to move foreward with anyone who negates you or your feelings. Sometimes this just isn't resolvable.

When my ex and I were in couples counseling the counselor did something that really highlighted the relationship to me. He asked me something and instructed Hubby to listen, I answered, then he ask H, "What did you hear Wild say?" The way this essentially went:
WC "I really love it when the sky is blue"
C "H, what did you hear her say?"
H "I can't see blue or green and she can't blame me for the color of the sky"
C "That's not what she said, what did she say?"
H "She blames me for everything"
C "No that's not what she said. WC, please repeat what you said"
WC "I really love it when the sky is blue"
C "Now H, what did she say?"
H "When I had my first surgery..."

Of course that wasn't the subject area but was pretty much now it went, I have a feeling both your wife and counselor's hearing work about like H's.

I really encourage you to get another counselor on your own. Typically if they are working with you as a couple they will not act as an individual counselor. Yes you need to move on but you can't do that until you, in yourself resolve any unresolved issues so that you can let go.

There is a letter writting technique that is often recomended that I have found helpful. Sit down and write your feelings,as if writing to your wife, let it all out. Then write yourself what you would like to hear from her. Do you want an appology? Write it. Do you want acknowledgement? Write it. Then, you may need to give yourself a little time, write your forgiveness.

Forgiveness isn't about saying it's OK, it may never be. It isn't about forgetting, It's about letting go. I written about this before - I think I should write a blog on it, just so I don't have to keep saying it. This really can help.

[Ashlee T.]

I can only speak for myself here, but I'd really like it if you told us the good things happening in your marriage. It is true that when you're mad about something and write the words, you can read them over and over and over,and they make SUCH perfect sense to you that you just can't get past them.

I think many of us here agree (and have said) that you're going to have to either 1. be willing to let some things go and move forward or 2. get out. You're still very angry, no one can tell you you're right or wrong for being angry.....but we can tell you that you'll not be able to move forward while still angry and lingering on the past.

With that said, please don't feel like you can only vent to us. You can tell us the good things, the steps forward, etc. You're improvements might help others.