[MiniVanMan]

Sunday my wife could see I needed to talk so we went to a local nature preserve and walked and talked for over an hour. She agreed to answer some of my burning questions. We each became agitated several times during the discussion but by the end we had both calmed down.

One thing I learned from our talk is that masturbation is not a sexual event for her. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that, since any dictionary definition you find will tell you that it is a sexual activity. She says she does it to relax, or to get her mind off things, or simply because she's bored (even if she's extremely busy!). Still, I believe she feels it isn't sexual, so I'm going to have to let that go. For me this makes things even worse, though. As someone said earlier in the thread, "at least she has a sex drive", but now that I know she's not being sexual when she masturbates, this has no bearing whatsoever on her sex drive. She could have no drive at all and still masturbate. For me this begs the question: If she can masturbate to relax, why can't she have sex to relax?

The other thing I learned was that she really doesn't remember much of the last 20 years of our relationship. So many of her answers on Sunday were "I don't remember" when I asked her about how she was feeling or about how she behaved back then. Last night our counselor asked her if her answers were a response to feeling attacked by all my questions. Was it that she wasn't invested in thinking much about the answers due to the pressure I was putting her under? My wife said, no, she just plain ol' didn't recall those events that I was asking about. Now I can see why she is so eager to forget the past and move on. If I could forget all the hurt I'd be willing to move on, too.

She still maintains that she never rejected me. That saying "no" to my sexual advances for 20 years wasn't rejection. It was that she just wasn't interested in sex. Everything else was fine. She still loved me. She still had the emotional connection. She still had her sex drive. Just no interest in sex with me. She said I "chose" to see it as rejection. When I asked her if she "chose" to lose interest in sex with her husband, she said no. I explained that my reaction was no more of a choice than hers. Not sure if she got that.

Now she and our counselor want me to accept the past for what it is, acknowledge the pain, but let it go. Concentrate on the present. On making the marriage work again. I can see their point. It's all very logical. It also, at this point, seems impossible.

Our counseling session ended when my wife talked herself into a frenzy and stormed out of the room in tears. She exclaimed that she just couldn't deal with me saying that it was all her fault, that if only we'd had a healthy sex life all these years things would be okay. But that is exactly how I feel. That is why I went looking for a marriage counselor 5 years ago. It's why I've been unhappy all this time. It's why I'm still unhappy. For me, sex leads to intimacy. When the sex stopped, rejection was my response and intimacy virtually disappeared.

My counselor knows I like to write about my feelings and wants me to stop doing it. She says in her experience it just makes things worse. People will dwell on what they write about, and this will hinder the healing process. I believe she's correct. I stopped posting in this thread for a while because even though I much appreciated the help, it just made things worse for me. She says if I want to journal I should write about the good things. The small victories that bring my wife and me closer together. The little daily pushes in the right direction. The healthy stuff.

[jns]

MVM: your therapist was smart about the questions, if they are really important, you could recreate them, even in your sleep. What is more important is: does she think you have any valid points.

If she is not being dismissive of you, she should be willing to keep a copy of your questions to go over at some undetermined time in the future to see if the points in them were valid and if they were worked on in the therapy. When you are distrustful of her attempts to change you, you could see if she kept the list. Make the list on paper that is hard to duplicate or sign and date it on the back so you will know you are seeing your list.

Asking 20 questions of your wife automatically puts you and her in an adversarial relationship. Maybe you need to use a reverse psychological approach and describe how you are damaged by wanting sex at least some of the time like normal people and how hard it is for you to become celibate. This may make her see things from the other side. Maybe not.

Ask your therapist how celibacy cements bonds between loving couples and how this has worked through history to propagate the human race. The Shakers of the late 1800s promoted a sexless existence and separation of the sexes. They died out and their religion was of the ages.

[WildChild]

It sounds like this therapist is not sex positive. She's not hearing you and not encouraging your wife to hear you either. You may need to find another therapist.

[MiniVanMan]

I thought this thread had died. Nice to see people are still talking.

Well, here's where I am at this point.

I understand that we need to work on making things better now and not dwell too much on the past. However, I still feel that unless we address the past I will never heal AND we are doomed to repeat it.

I made a list of questions, asking about my wife's needs and also asking for clarification on what seem to be conflicting statements she's made. I also had a list of responses to her reasons for sending me to a sex therapist. These are things that I really need to talk about if I'm going to get past the hurt and other strong emotions I'm feeling. If I can't discuss these things they will linger forever and I will never fully heal. Additionally, I will never feel that I've had the chance to explain my side of things.

Our couples counselor agreed to see me alone. I showed her my questions and she read them over very carefully. We then had this exchange:

Counselor: What if your wife doesn't know the answers to these questions?
Me: Well, she should. They're all about her feelings.
Counselor: But what if she's just not as in touch with herself like you are? She may not know the answers.
Me: Then this is a good opportunity to get to know herself better. I think these are things she needs to understand about herself.
Counselor: I think you should shred this list of questions, delete the computer file, and forget about them.

She said if the questions are important to me then I won't forget them. I can ask them later after things calm down. If I forget them then they weren't important in the first place. But shred and delete. Don't keep them around.

Wow. I couldn't disagree more. Problem is in every other case I've found this counselor to be extremely helpful and insightful. I trust her and am comfortable with her. I just think she's wrong about this.

We go to counseling once a week as a couple. In between counseling more questions pile up and I get more agitated. Our counselor won't let me ask important questions and my wife says "go ahead and ask but I probably will refuse to answer". She thinks that the answers will just cause me to "overreact" again and she doesn't want that.

I feel stonewalled by both of them. Even if I don't like the answers, at least we've confronted the issues. Burying them isn't going to help.

I need to know that my wife has some sense of contribution to my 20 years of unhappinesProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 She's pretty much come right out and said that she sees nothing wrong with making a unilateral decision to have a sexless marriage. That I'm overreacting and it's all my problem. Yet the blogs and forums are teeming with guys like me (and women too) who have had their once healthy sex lives ripped out from under them, and their spouses just shrug with callous disregard for the health of their marriage. And they use the exact same words I've been using: hurt, angry, duped, betrayed.

And my wife continues to believe that my feelings are "not normal". That I need to see a sex therapist to work this out on my own.

It's all just so frustrating.

- MiniVanMan

[CHANDLERS WISH]

This is what I used to tell my hubby when I went through 8-10 years of not wanting to have sex with him. You know why? Because by saying this, I was placing the blame on him, not myself. If it was HIS problem, then I didn't have to change, even though I KNEW deep down, it was entirely my problem.

Finally, I decided to grow up and deal with the situation. Now looking back, well, yeah, of course all he thought about was wanting to have sex, I was never giving him any. It's like telling someone to not think about the pink elephant in the room, well, that's all you end up thinking about. I'm kind of surprised that your counselor hasn't brought up that little nugget.

You are not overreacting, but she needs to change. She needs to do a little self examination, a little self reflection. I KNOW how hard it is to accept the blame in these situations, it's not fun because that means she has to change and when someone has to change, they are thrown out of their element and comfort zone.

Good luck to you.

Lana, there is so much I want to say...

I missed your post, for that I am sorry.. maybe many did...

You just spoke... a woman, whom stopped loving, stopped feeling sexy, intimate but, somehow, saw that there actually was real love? And, from that changed... dramatically, 8-10 years, dear lord... that's a life time in reality.. To focus? Re-gain that chemistry from the beginning because you evaluated, and saw, felt, love... and changed? My goodness, that takes one heck of a person, one with pure understanding of what the word love actually means.

I'm gobsmacked and proud, rolled into one.

This is what I used to tell my hubby when I went through 8-10 years of not wanting to have sex with him. You know why? Because by saying this, I was placing the blame on him, not myself. If it was HIS problem, then I didn't have to change, even though I KNEW deep down, it was entirely my problem

Yes, if, and if, he was loving, intimate, giving, wanting, you... And, you totally ignored that for what ever reason. Mostly, it's two people, is it not?

Realising that you don't want to.. And, him stating that, letting you know, asking why? Will make you one day accept the guilt.

But, remember, he communicated but what? Maybe, you saw that previous love, I am so proud of you and honoured to call you a woman... But, again, remember, something triggered it to start with... It takes two.. Maybe you were more stubborn, maybe you saw what you were taught, and couldn't see.

It doesn't matter.

What matters is that you "saw" and in that you regained not sex, but love, intimacy, cheekiness, chemistry, lust and love.

I hope

Thank you for being real.. And, telling a tale that can encourage others to see.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

How deep is your love?

Both...

One, sees sex as sex..

The other sees it as bonding, intimacy..

They have to join and see sex as sex, for fun, and intimacy as bonding, and loving, "together"..

CW

[pretzel]

He hasn't asked me to do anything. Married partners that don't want to have sex any longer make up excuses why they can't or don't want to do it. If this goes on for years, the excuses obviously get more ornate and involved and eventually run out. At that point the cat is out of the bag and it's just acknowledged sex isn't going to happen-no reason needed. And yes, this is abuse. It's also a selfish acknowledgement of I don't have to do that if I don't want to-nevermind I am married. I just don't. Very inconsiderate.

In that statement, you quite explicitly described what I believe my wife feels.

[JennieMay]

It works both ways. The man in my life wants what he wants and too bad if I want anything but crumbs. I've entirely given up trying to initiate sex or any kind of intimacy.

I agree with you Wildchild.

[JoliAvocat]

I am so sorry. I am thankful to you for your sharing your story... for many of those women AND men out there in relatively early phases of their relationship going through something similiar though. For a sexual person to sacrafice 35 years of their pleasure trying to get their partner to care enough about them to try to please them... is heartbreaking.

For those that sit and think, maybe he'll change, maybe she'll change... read those words: decades.

Communication is so important if you aren't getting what you need from your partner, and if a compromise can't be made... you can spend 35 years banging your head against a brick wall... or cut your losses way earlier on if your partner refuses to respect your feelings/wants/needs.

I wish the best for you, Jolie and am truly feeling a pain in my gut for how hurtful your relationship has been to you.

If you had it to do over again... at what point/if any.... would you have realized that he was set in his ways and not changing?

Thank you-heartbreaking it is. I am a woman of strong integrity and therefore, when I considered all of my options, I could not cheat on him just for the sex. I love him. I wanted sex with him. I knew 20 years ago this was an enormous deficit for me. He and I have talked about it often and openly and that resulted - usually - in one time sex and then more years of nothing. I was hurt over and over thinking that it might be fixed and having one time sex with the stark pain of realizing it was NOT fixed and I was once again in the same place. I got so I felt I was begging him which is not a good feeling as well. My OB/GYN told me we needed a sex therapist and I told him what the physician said. We just never went. At this point I told him I cannot continue the marriage. We both agreed to marriage counseling instead and will undoubtedly see a sex therapist afterward. Marriage counseling - after a few visits is very painful. It may get better if I can process some of the bitterness I feel because of this issue. I cannot trust him to have a sexual relationship with me at this point because every other time I have, it was one time sex and then years and I do not wish to feel the pain of that ever again. The counselor is extremely good. She is well aware of how I feel and is clear on our path forward. It's just very painful. I feel caught in this life I do not want and so does he. We are trying hard to determine what the new and improved marriage will turn out to be like. The saving grace is that for 40 years we have been very much in love with each other. What a paradox! If I didn't love him, I wouldn't want sex with him and it would be easy to vacate this marriage. He does know I cannot continue as we have been and at this point, I don't think he wants that old marriage either.

[JoliAvocat]

Was the sex ever good? My guess is the few times you have had sex with him, it was bad. Does he masturbate? Additionally, does he have any redeeming qualities other than bringing home a paycheck? Finally, why on earth would you stay with someone in this kind of situation for so long expecting a different result?

You couldn't be more wrong. Sex between us, when it took place, was incredible. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be grieving so badly for it. He and I are both professionals that garner six figure incomes each year. Why would I stay with him? Because I have always loved him. I am of the belief that too many people, whether married or just in a relationship, cut and run at the first sign of difficulty only to move onto the next partner who has a different sort of problem. Nobody is perfect and if you work on relationships you have something so much more valuable than just onto the next. I've been married 40 years to him tomorrow. We are in counseling-both marriage and after that sex therapy. I posted here because I noticed that when there is a lack of sex in marriages or relationships, it seems it's always the female who doesn't want the sex. I wanted to point out to all of you that this is not the case and sometimes it's the male.